Yep! and quit spending "our" money to get it there, if it even registered on 
the radar. I could go further about all the $$$ they give to rural telco's, but 
that's another matter.

Scott

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: RickG <rgunder...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org>
Date:  Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:31:37 -0500

>That is my point. Over my lifetime, I've done a lot of moving and traveling.
>What I find is that some areas are not as progressive as others - and they
>want it that way. Why do the Feds think they know whats best for these
>areas? Dont the locals know whats best for themselves? If the majority in
>these areas dont want broadband access so be it. If the minority in these
>areas wants it, then they need to change the minds of the majority, figure
>out a way to get it there, or move. Where is my thinking wrong here?
>-RickG
>
>On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 8:16 AM, Stuart Pierce <spie...@avolve.net> wrote:
>
>> Under/un-served areas unfortunately doesn't guarantee any take rate or even
>> clients being able to or wanting to make payment. So your own money would be
>> best in those situations rather than stimulus for sure.
>>
>>
>> >Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>> >> You've got an area with 25k households close by and you don't have
>> anything
>> >> in there?  No one else has anything there either?
>> >>
>> >> That's 2.5 times MORE than my ENTIRE COUNTY has in it!
>> >>
>> >> Man I could be making a lot more money if I lived nearly anywhere else!
>> >> marlon
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Chuck Bartosch" <ch...@clarityconnect.com>
>> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:04 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> In my 3 county area that I was developing an application for, there
>> were
>> >>> 25,000 households without access to service and in one of those
>> counties I
>> >>> was only covering the lower half of the unserved areas of the county.
>> (And
>> >>> one partially unserved town in the County I live in was counting on a
>> >>> different provider to include them in their application, but that
>> provider
>> >>> chose not to include them for one reason or another). It's very easy
>> for
>> >>> me to believe the 24 million number since I'm in upstate NY.
>> >>>
>> >>> What was particularly interesting to me is that in the detailed census
>> >>> block studies I did, you would often see half of a census block
>> >>> (geographical half) had service and the other did not. 2/3rds of the
>> >>> houses in the census block were on the covered side, but it's very
>> >>> difficult to see how the other third would ever get service since it
>> >>> doesn't fit cable's density plan but isn't enough to justify anyone
>> else
>> >>> building out to them either.
>> >>>
>> >>> Chuck
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jan 21, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> I think so.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 24 million just seems to be such a large number when you take into
>> >>>> account
>> >>>> the well known underreporting of our industry segment (and perhaps
>> >>>> others?).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It's hard to imagine that all of our hard work thus far has left so
>> many
>> >>>> homes untouched.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> At a lowly 40% take rate and $20 per month per account that's
>> >>>> $288,000,000
>> >>>> in MONTHLY revenue left sitting idle.  It just makes no sense to me.
>>  I
>> >>>> can't get my arms around the idea that we've left that many homes with
>> no
>> >>>> options.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I can see 24 million households with no service.  I just can't see
>> that
>> >>>> many
>> >>>> with no access to service.  Heck, I have people that still have dialup
>> >>>> internet even though they are within spitting distance of a tower.  Do
>> >>>> they
>> >>>> count as one of the 24 million?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> laters,
>> >>>> marlon
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Chuck Bartosch" <ch...@clarityconnect.com>
>> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:06 AM
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> So, the salient points are, as I understand it (correct me if I'm
>> >>>>> wrong):
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> (1) Brian's numbers are 24 million currently HAVE NO ACCESS TO
>> SERVICE.
>> >>>>> His number DOES NOT INCLUDE the number who have access but have
>> chosen
>> >>>>> not
>> >>>>> to subscribe.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> (2) You haven't seen the underlying data yourself because much of it
>> is
>> >>>>> private data that you didn't purchase yourself. You get to see the
>> >>>>> analysis from it because Brian HAS purchased it and combined it with
>> >>>>> publicly available data.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Chuck
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:46 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Heya Brian,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> That's the take I had on this.  That the number of households
>> services
>> >>>>>> was
>> >>>>>> based on the 477 data.  I didn't see any other data sets that would
>> >>>>>> give
>> >>>>>> an
>> >>>>>> indication of the number of actually services households.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If the study is based only on the consumers reported via the 477
>> it's
>> >>>>>> likely
>> >>>>>> to be quite inaccurate.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> People in government etc. are often quite amazed at the number of
>> >>>>>> customers
>> >>>>>> that I service out here.  And I'm just one of a great many companies
>> >>>>>> offering services in the area.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm trying to get a handle on what additional sources of fact based
>> >>>>>> information are out there.  It's important to know what the real
>> number
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>> and yours seems very high to me.  I don't think it'll be helpful in
>> the
>> >>>>>> long
>> >>>>>> term if we have a number that gets blown out of the water in the
>> >>>>>> upcoming
>> >>>>>> census.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> marlon
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>> From: "Brian Webster" <bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com>
>> >>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:00 PM
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Marlon,
>> >>>>>>> Read this take rate brief I wrote with one of the data companies I
>> >>>>>>> work
>> >>>>>>> with. It will take you about 10 minutes. It goes in to specific
>> detail
>> >>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> how the study was conducted and the sources of the data. It was
>> >>>>>>> written
>> >>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>> the 10 minute managers of the world. The key to being able to come
>> up
>> >>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>> the numbers was having the data at the census block level in the
>> first
>> >>>>>>> place. Prior to July of this year there were no sources that I am
>> >>>>>>> aware
>> >>>>>>> of.
>> >>>>>>> The only information drawn from the form 477 is the total number of
>> >>>>>>> residential subscribers by state. The number of households without
>> >>>>>>> access
>> >>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>> broadband has no relationship to the 477 data. That should be
>> spelled
>> >>>>>>> out
>> >>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>> the report.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thank You,
>> >>>>>>> Brian Webster
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:
>> wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
>> >>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:32 PM
>> >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> OK, as I understand that the report is based upon the 477 data?
>> >>>>>>> marlon
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>> From: Jack Unger
>> >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:41 AM
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Marlon,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> See the attached report. Go to Table 2 on page 11. Look at the last
>> >>>>>>> cell
>> >>>>>>> in the lower, right-hand corner.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> jack
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>> >>>>>>> I still don't buy that number in the first place.  I wish I knew
>> more
>> >>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>> how Brian came up with it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> What % of rural households does that work out to be?
>> >>>>>>> marlon
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>>>>> From: "Jack Unger" <jun...@ask-wi.com>
>> >>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:27 AM
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sorry but this article (accidentally or intentionally) misses or
>> (more
>> >>>>>>> likely) ignores the point that 24 or more million occupied American
>> >>>>>>> households have no access to broadband. The WSJ is merely a
>> mouthpiece
>> >>>>>>> (especially now that Rupurt Murdoch owns it) for the telcos.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> jack
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Jeff Broadwick wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870365210457465250160837655
>> >>>>>>> 2.ht
>> >>>>>>> ml?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>  * REVIEW & OUTLOOK
>> >>>>>>>  * JANUARY 20, 2010
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> A 'National Broadband Plan'
>> >>>>>>> One more solution in search of a problem.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The Federal Communications Commission recently told Congress that
>> it
>> >>>>>>> will
>> >>>>>>> miss a February deadline for delivering a "national broadband plan"
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> requested a one-month extension. If it keeps missing deadlines,
>> nearly
>> >>>>>>> everyone in the U.S. might soon have high-speed Internet.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> As part of last year's stimulus package, Congress asked the FCC for
>> a
>> >>>>>>> plan
>> >>>>>>> to ensure that everybody in the country has access to broadband.
>> >>>>>>> That's
>> >>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>> worthy goal, but the idea of a government plan is based on a false
>> >>>>>>> presumption that the spread of broadband is stalled. The reality is
>> >>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>>> broadband adoption continues apace, as does the quality and speed
>> of
>> >>>>>>> Internet connections.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Between 2000 and 2008, residential broadband subscribers grew to 80
>> >>>>>>> million
>> >>>>>>> from five million, according to a study by Bret Swanson of Entropy
>> >>>>>>> Economics. Broadband penetration among active Internet users at
>> home
>> >>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>> 94%,
>> >>>>>>> and nearly 99% of U.S. workers connect to the Internet with
>> broadband.
>> >>>>>>> A
>> >>>>>>> typical cable modem today is 10 times faster than a decade ago.
>> >>>>>>> Wireless
>> >>>>>>> bandwidth growth per capita has been no less impressive, showing a
>> >>>>>>> 500-fold
>> >>>>>>> increase since 2000.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Meanwhile, U.S. information and communications technology
>> investment
>> >>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>> 2008
>> >>>>>>> alone totalled $455 billion, or 22% of all U.S. capital investment.
>> >>>>>>> Nominal
>> >>>>>>> capital investment in telecom between 2000 and 2008 was more than
>> $3.5
>> >>>>>>> trillion.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Those who favor more government control of the Internet ignore this
>> >>>>>>> private
>> >>>>>>> progress and point to international rankings. According to OECD
>> >>>>>>> estimates,
>> >>>>>>> the U.S. ranks 15th in the world in broadband penetration per
>> capita.
>> >>>>>>> But
>> >>>>>>> because household sizes differ from country to country, and the
>> U.S.
>> >>>>>>> has
>> >>>>>>> relatively large households, the per capita figures can be
>> misleading.
>> >>>>>>> A
>> >>>>>>> better way to gauge wired broadband connections is per household,
>> not
>> >>>>>>> per
>> >>>>>>> person. By that measure the U.S. ranks somewhere between 8th and
>> 10th.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Such comparisons will soon be moot in any case because broadband
>> >>>>>>> penetration
>> >>>>>>> is growing rapidly in all OECD countries. The Technology Policy
>> >>>>>>> Institute
>> >>>>>>> notes that "at the current rates of broadband adoption the U.S. is
>> >>>>>>> behind
>> >>>>>>> the leaders only by a number of months, and all wealthy OECD
>> countries
>> >>>>>>> will
>> >>>>>>> reach a saturation point within the next few years."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Even the Obama Justice Department seems to reject the broadband
>> market
>> >>>>>>> failure thesis. "In any industry subject to significant
>> technological
>> >>>>>>> change, it is important that the evaluation of competition be
>> >>>>>>> forward-looking rather than based on static definitions of products
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> services," said the Antitrust Division in a January 4 filing to the
>> >>>>>>> FCC.
>> >>>>>>> "In
>> >>>>>>> the case of broadband services, it's clear that the market is
>> shifting
>> >>>>>>> generally in the direction of faster speeds and additional
>> mobility."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Justice concludes that while "enacting some form of regulation to
>> >>>>>>> prevent
>> >>>>>>> certain providers from exercising monopoly control may be tempting
>> . .
>> >>>>>>> .
>> >>>>>>> care must be taken to avoid stifling the infrastructure investments
>> >>>>>>> needed
>> >>>>>>> to expand broadband access."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> No matter, the default position of the Obama Administration is that
>> >>>>>>> little
>> >>>>>>> useful happens without government, so the FCC is busy planning.
>> >>>>>>> Chairman
>> >>>>>>> Julius Genachowski is sympathetic to net neutrality regulations
>> that
>> >>>>>>> would
>> >>>>>>> prevent Internet service providers from using differentiated
>> pricing
>> >>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>> manage Web traffic. Liberal interest groups like Public Knowledge
>> and
>> >>>>>>> Harvard's Berkman Center for the Internet and Society are urging
>> the
>> >>>>>>> agency
>> >>>>>>> to reinstitute "open access" mandates that would force cable
>> operators
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> phone companies to share their infrastructure with rivals at
>> >>>>>>> government-set
>> >>>>>>> prices.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The irony is that the private investment and innovation of recent
>> >>>>>>> years
>> >>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>> occurred in the wake of the FCC rolling back similar rules that
>> held
>> >>>>>>> back
>> >>>>>>> telecom in the 1990s. Consumers continue to have access to more and
>> >>>>>>> more
>> >>>>>>> broadband services, while Google, YouTube, iTunes, Facebook and
>> >>>>>>> Netflix
>> >>>>>>> originated in the U.S.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Doesn't the Obama Administration have enough to do than mess with a
>> >>>>>>> part
>> >>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> the U.S. economy that is working well?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Jeff
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Jeff Broadwick
>> >>>>>>> Sales Manager, ImageStream
>> >>>>>>> 800-813-5123 x106     (US/Can)
>> >>>>>>> +1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)
>> >>>>>>> +1 574-935-8488       (Fax)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>> ----
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>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>    --
>> >>>>>>> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
>> >>>>>>> Network Design - Technical Writing - Technical Training
>> >>>>>>> Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities
>> >>>>>>> Since
>> >>>>>>> 1993
>> >>>>>>> www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>> ----
>> >>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>> >>>>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>> ----
>> >>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
>> >>>>>>> Network Design - Technical Writing - Technical Training
>> >>>>>>> Serving the Broadband Wireless, Networking and Telecom Communities
>> >>>>>>> Since
>> >>>>>>> 1993
>> >>>>>>> www.ask-wi.com  818-227-4220  jun...@ask-wi.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>> ------
>> >>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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>> >>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> --------------
>> >>>>> Chuck Bartosch
>> >>>>> Clarity Connect, Inc.
>> >>>>> 200 Pleasant Grove Road
>> >>>>> Ithaca, NY 14850
>> >>>>> (607) 257-8268
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "When the stars threw down their spears,
>> >>>>> and water'd heaven with their tears,
>> >>>>> Did He smile, His work to see?
>> >>>>> Did He who made the Lamb make thee?"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >>>>
>> >>> --------------
>> >>> Chuck Bartosch
>> >>> Clarity Connect, Inc.
>> >>> 200 Pleasant Grove Road
>> >>> Ithaca, NY 14850
>> >>> (607) 257-8268
>> >>>
>> >>> "When the stars threw down their spears,
>> >>> and water'd heaven with their tears,
>> >>> Did He smile, His work to see?
>> >>> Did He who made the Lamb make thee?"
>> >>>
>> >>> >From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
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>>
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