Hello tee, Thanks for your explanation of the Chinese problems for Mac IE users. I'd be really grateful if you could point me to concrete examples of these problems. Let me note that my understanding is that the majority of Chinese characters display fine. My guess would be that the characters required to display link text saying Traditional Chinese or Simplified Chinese in Chinese would also work fine - please confirm, if you can.
Wrt my suggestions, note that I said use utf-8 'if you can'. (Note also that much of the time we will be referring to use of utf-8 on pages that point to Chinese pages, rather than pages that are in Chinese, so this would not always be an issue.) I'd really like to get better quantification of the size of the problem. If you can help me there I'd be v grateful. Also, there's the difficult problem of whether we should care about people who use outdated technology. I don't think there's a good answer to that. On the other hand, user agents are free so for issues centring on *them* I'm reluctant to relieve the pressure on people to upgrade. OS issues may be slightly more problematic, but I still hope people can be encouraged to move on where possible. The Web will never move forward if we throw up our hands and always design to the lowest common denominator. But that's another topic, and not one for which there's an easy answer... RI ============ Richard Ishida W3C contact info: http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ W3C Internationalization: http://www.w3.org/International/ Publication blog: http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee > Sent: 12 April 2005 19:10 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in > an English web site > > Hi Richard, your answers are all very enlightened to me, > especially that I > intend to provide bilingual web site services. > > - use utf-8 as the page encoding if you can (you do > Lachlan, I know) > However I have a bit of doubt on this though. Don't get me > wrong, I am a > unicode supporter and have my Chinese page set to utf-8, > despite the fact > that I know very well Mac' IE 5.2 (which still have > significant users) has > poor support of unicode Chinese - some character are missing, > some got cut > of. I thought I could afford to lose this audience and I am > sort of still > believing it. > > Ever since my web site launched, 3 people email me that my > Chinese site, the > characters looks funny on their browsers. What a luck I > have, three of them > are using OS 9 with their beloved IEs. One who emailed me yesterday, > actually was looking for a web designer who can make Chinese > website and > know the language well to help her with the content (which I > am), and is a > recommendation from a new client I recently got. The first > sentence in her > email is: How can I be sure that you did know to make Chinese > website if you > site is not showing up properly on my browser? > > I of course have a answer for her that I can have the site > set to gb or > big5, but to unknown audiences, you can't suggest them to > switch to NN or > FF, not to mention that OS 9 user has limited choice when it comes to > browser. I personally know 5 people that uses Mac, their OS > are 8.6 to 9.2, > two of them actually have the first flat panel iMac that > shipped with OS X > but 9.2 by default. They did not know they can turn the OS X > on. All these > people are IE 5.2 users. I believe there are many more like > them out there. > > That was the reason I make a suggestion to Lachlan that if > his client cares > the Chinese audience, perhaps a gb/big 5 page is more > important than 'using > the utf-8 whenever you can'. > > > tee > > > Subject: RE: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese > in an English web > > site > > > > I've been meaning for some time to write an article about > this for the W3C > > i18n site but not yet found the time. I'll have to try harder. > > > > To help, here are some brief suggestions, based on the > assumptions that you > > are linking to translations (rather than different country > sites), and have > > enough space on the user interface to list all alternatives. > > > > (Disclaimer: These are quickly written > stream-of-consciousness notes that > > haven't been reviewed.) > > > > > > > - use the name of the target language in the native > language and script as > > the link, eg. 'French' would be written 'franÃais' (note, > beware of different > > capitalisation conventions) > > > > - use a graphic if you are concerned about users not > having the appropriate > > font/rendering capability for the language you are showing > (note that these > > will never be translated, so the usual translatability > issue about text in > > graphics is mute) (note also that the person who speaks the > language linked to > > will usually have the necessary fonts etc., so this is more > of a cosmetic > > issue)(Of course, it is slightly more time consuming to > change graphics if > > your styling is changed.) > > > > - if you are not using utf-8 or another Unicode encoding > you may need to > use a > > graphic or numeric character references > > > > - put the links near the top of the page (and ideally to > the right side, if > > the design allows). At least make them above the fold. > > > > - don't forget to post visible links to all language > versions on all pages > > that have translations > > > > - since you are using text in another language, identify > the language using > > lang/xml:lang attributes > > > > - add title and alt text *in the language of the current > page* that > explains > > that this is a link to a translated version of the page. It > is likely that the > > language name alone is sufficient here (see the example > below) - this > > certainly helps when adding new translations to the list, > since you can look > > up the appropriate text rather than having to ask all the > translators for > > additional translations of language names). > > > > - note that lang/xml:lang values reflect the language of > attribute text as > > well as element content. For this reason you may need to > nest elements as in > > the example below. > > > > - consider specifying styling for the foreign text - > especially if this is > > Chinese, Japanese or Korean, where fonts may be > automatically applied by the > > user agent (see > > > http://www.w3.org/International/tests/results/lang-and-cjk-fon t ). For info on > > how to apply the style see > > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-lang . > > > > > > > > EXAMPLE > > > > Here is an example of an English document that points to > romanian and swedish > > translations using text: > > > > <p class="noprint">> > > <span title="Romanian"><a > > > href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.ro.html" > xml:lang="ro" > > lang="ro">RomÃnaË</a></span> > > <span title="Swedish"><a > > > href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.sv.html" > xml:lang="sv" > > lang="sv">svenska</a></span></p> > > > > [Those of you who are clever enough to find these pages > should be aware that > > we are still in the process of implementing these > translations and updating > > the page style at the same time, so you won't see what you > expect in this case > > ;-) > > > > Note that the span is added to support the title > information, since that is in > > English. (The <html> tag declares the context to be English.) > > > > > > Here is an example using graphics: > > > > <p class="noprint">> > > <a > href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.ro.html"><img > > src="romanian.gif" alt="Romanian" title="Romanian"/></a> > > <a > href="/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.sv.html"><img > > src="swedish.gif" alt="Swedish" title="Swedish"/></a></p> > > > > > > > > SHOULD I USE HREFLANG? > > > > You could, but it doesn't really seem to have any effect > here (unlike in the > > <link> element). There are also some potential issues you > should consider. > > See > > > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#r i20050128.152033 > > 553 > > > > Also, it should be redundant because you should ensure that > you declare the > > language of the target page in its <html> tag anyway ! > > > > > > > > OTHER IDEAS (SOME FROM WSG FOLK) > > > > - if using graphics, you could use a roll-over mechanism > to reveal the name > of > > the language of the target page in the language of the > current page (rather > > than just the title and alt attributes). > > > > - I'm not convinced an automated gif is a good idea - > especially if you > have > > several going at the same time (too much like blink text). > > > > - It is also possible to include the name of the > language of the target > page > > in parentheses in the language of the current page - an > example makes this > > clear, on an English page you might have: franÃais > (French). This uses up a > > lot of space, however, and it could be argued that it is > unnecessary. > > > > > > FURTHER READING > > > > See also upcoming articles on: > > - How to use the link element > > - How to deal with pull-downs, where there isn't room to list all > alternatives > > directly in the page. > > > > > > Hope that helps. > > RI > > > > > > ============ > > Richard Ishida > > W3C > > > > contact info: > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ > > > > W3C Internationalization: > > http://www.w3.org/International/ > > > > Publication blog: > > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hardy > >> Sent: 11 April 2005 15:02 > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: [WSG] I18n - Traditional & Simplified Chinese in an > >> English web site > >> > >> G'day folks! > >> > >> A query for those with some experience in using multiple > >> languages in their sites: > >> > >> In a site that is predominantly English, select pages have > >> been translated into both Simplified and Traditional Chinese. > >> Each page contains a link where users are able to indicate > >> their preferred language (hence receiving translated pages as > >> appropriate). My issue is how to show this this link appropriately > >> > >> Originally I had something similar to this: > >> > >> <a href="#" lang="zh-Hans" > >> title="éæåïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæ > >> åèééæäçääææç">çääæ</a> (don't know this > >> will come out in > >> email, but the contents of the anchor and its title attribute > >> are Simplified Chinese) > >> > >> However, this fails as on many computers it will appear as > >> those horrible little blocks that indicate lack of the > >> appropriate font > >> > >> Next attempt was something like: > >> > >> <a href="#"><img > >> src="#" > >> alt="Most pages will display in English, only translated > >> pages display in Simplified Chinese. éæ > >> åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç" > >> title="When > >> selected, most > >> pages will be in readable in English with only translated > >> pages displaying in Simplified Chinese. éæ > >> åïåæéééåçèæéèïäåæåèééæäçääææç"></a> > >> > >> Except of course, that doesn't give any indication of > >> language involved. > >> > >> Suggestions, experiences, vague clues? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Lachlan > >> > >> > >> ****************************************************** > >> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > >> > >> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > >> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > >> ****************************************************** > >> > > > > ****************************************************** > > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > > ****************************************************** > > > > ****************************************************** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ****************************************************** > ****************************************************** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ******************************************************
