Hi Derek,
you they know that the Flarm has a Privacy Mode, aka Stealth Mode, which when
enabled does not show your climb and other data, only the warnings?
Viele Grüße,
Martin Kopplow
---
Am 30.03.2011 um 00:25 schrieb Derek Ruddock <derek.rudd...@optus.com.au>:
> That’s one of the major concerns of US pilots (see rec.aviation.soaring):
> that the Powerflarm will show the climb rates of nearby gliders, and thus
> somehow will be used for leeching. They seem to miss the point that just by
> looking at a nearby glider you can see if they are climbing better than you...
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Derek
>
> 人生は短いです：一日をつかむ
>
> From: Luke O'Donnell [mailto:l.odonnel...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2011 5:54 PM
> To: Hannu Niemi
> Cc: xcsoar-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Xcsoar-user] XCSoar OK for contest?
>
>
>
> Do current builds of XCSoar still have the lift-rate via flarm sensing
> capability? I was under the impression it was no longer in the build as of
> 5.2.x or something. At least i recall a conversation between altair owners
> who mentioned you had to use an older build to get the functionality.
>
> The sportsmanship of using the functionality in competitions seems dubious at
> best, has it been specifically ruled against by FAI or other gliding bodies?
>
> Luke
>
> On 29 March 2011 16:29, Hannu Niemi <hnpi...@phnet.fi> wrote:
>
> Actually I see that the airspace control is the "main point" why the software
> loggers are not approved because the restricting altitudes are mostly defined
> in standard pressure. The gps altitude is not pressure altitude neither the
> accuracy on vertical component of GPS coordinates isn't as good as lateral.
>
> About the OLC flights it depends quite a lot WHERE you are flying. Here in
> Finland it is quite possible to fly long flights without ever being close to
> another glider, if you fly somewhere else than southern Finland ;)
>
> hannu
>
>
>
> On 29.3.2011 9:20, martin.kopp...@gmx.de wrote:
>
> If loggers would cooperate more tightly with EG Flarms, they could also log
> meeting other aircraft during the flight. These events would be hardly
> predictable by anyone interested in tampering with the flight data. During
> scoring, flight data of all pilots could then automatically be checked
> against each other. I can imagine that his would make even a software logger
> tamper proof up to an extent that practically makes data manipulation
> impossible in comps, especially if collected flights are not published before
> all the IGC-Files have been turned in.
>
>
>
> AFAIK the standard Flarm box does already collect this data as a means for a
> range check analysis.
>
>
>
> It could well be that one could spoof a flight for decentralised competitions
> such as OLC, because one could argue that there was no other glider close
> enough all flight long, but even that is quite unlikely.
>
> Viele Grüße,
>
> Martin Kopplow
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
> Am 29.03.2011 um 07:34 schrieb "Luke O'Donnell" <l.odonnel...@gmail.com>:
>
> Ahh, that's right, i forgot they had internal altitude sensors.
>
> I don't think for one second that trying to cheat by tampering with a log
> would be easy - spoofing tens of thousands of datapoints in such a way that
> it looks like a valid flight would be incredibly difficult and time consuming
> - time that would be much better spent practicing :P. Having said that, much
> the same would apply to attempting to tamper with a non-IGC approved logger,
> you would still need to spoof the datapoints in such a way that it looks like
> a valid flight.
>
> From what i've seen, it's common practice for competition pilots (especially
> at the higher levels) to look at the top few pilots traces for the day to see
> what better decisions they made, so it's not as though people wouldn't notice
> the trace behaving significantly different to what they are used to seeing. I
> guess i'm just saying that trying to successfully spoof a trace even with a
> non-igc approved logger would be very difficult to get away with in real
> life, and would likely see you never competing again (rightly so). I'm not
> convinced the biggest hurdle would be trying to overcome the protections put
> in place by the IGC certification, but rather the sort of problems mentioned
> above.
>
> Luke
>
>
> On 29 March 2011 15:23, Hannu Niemi <hnpi...@phnet.fi> wrote:
>
> There actually two things that make a logger IGC approved
>
> 1. The anti-tampering methods which both signs the code against changes in
> the file (easy) and against opening the device (electronic seal). Quite many
> of loggers have integral antenna to make your approach a bit difficult.
>
> 2. The approved loggers have also internal pressure metering to have reliable
> altitude reference (flight levels are based on normal pressure). It also
> makes faking the gps signal more difficult as gps height should follow the
> altitude trace.
>
> I believe that tampering with results is quite difficult in practice during
> the competition because you can't know much earlier where one should fly and
> at what time. Normally we are so many that being missed and still
> "as-of-been-there" is quite difficult an equation. At least here (and in most
> comps I know) the IGC files are made available and some peer-control would
> quite surely - at least in long run - show this forgery off. Also the time
> restraints give quite a little time for tampering.
>
> hannu (I have been scoring maybe 50-60 comps since '91)
>
>
>
> On 29.3.2011 8:10, Luke O'Donnell wrote:
>
> I was under the impression it was the same in Australia - generally
> XCSoar/SeeYou etc traces are accepted in smaller reigonal comp's, but not at
> the national level. If i recall correctly, the Australian National's rules
> (Jan 2011) were that you could submit a non-IGC approved trace only once
> during the competition - intended to be a failsafe in the event of a logger
> failure.
>
> I havn't found much solid documentation on the web RE the anti-tamper
> requirements for IGC-approved loggers, are these really all that
> tamper-proof? I imagine that anyone who was really dedicated to cheating
> could probably plug a device into the external GPS antenna connector of an
> approved logger and spoof the gps signals. This would remove the need for
> such a cheater to actually tamper with the .igc file, which would presumably
> be detectable with reference to some sort of hashing algorithm.
>
> Luke
>
> On 29 March 2011 14:50, Max Kellermann <m...@duempel.org> wrote:
>
> On 2011/03/29 06:30, Hannu Niemi <hnpi...@phnet.fi> wrote:
> > Only thing you are missing without declaration is the "accelerated
> > rate of fixes" near turnpoint (though I am not sure if GPS-NAV even
> > supports this). In Volkslogger et al the logger logs fixes every
> > second below 0.5 km before the turning point cylinder
>
> XCSoar does that.
>
>
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