It appears people would like to continue in this discussion so here goes:
When train service became available to the public did people "throw away"
their other modes of transportation (horse/buggies)? NO!
When automobiles where introduced did people stop using trains? NO!
Why?
Because there are some people who's cognitive makeup causes them to prefer a
"sharing" model. The reasons for this are many; cost justification, lack
required skills, fear, uncertainty, doubt, et al.
There is also a certain class of people who prefer to "be in control". They
are the same ones that choose to take their cars to work in downtown
Manhattan, as opposed to taking the train. I'm sure they have their reasons.
MY POSITION IS THIS:
VAN's will continue to exist for the foreseeable future, because of people
who prefer the sharing model, for whatever reason.
Companies will implement their own E-Commerce servers and perform direct
communication with trading partners because they want to be in control over
their own destiny or perhaps it's the most cost effective solution for them.
For those who are "on the fence" they will each, subjectively, weigh the key
factors which affect their decision to BUY or OUTSOURCE.
In the past, companies only had two alternatives for moving EDI data, use a
VAN OR perform direct connects between themselves. Now there is third
alternative, the Internet, and for many companies the Internet is the lowest
cost solution and it gives them the control they desire over their
E-Commerce future. Internet EDI products have existed and been in production
use since 1997 in the Energy Industry, clearly there are some who believe
direct TP to TP communication via the Internet is the better solution for
moving EDI data.
Dick Brooks
http://www.8760.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Bollinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 3:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The need for speed: XML vs. Internet EDI
Hear, hear, William! Yes, Please don't take this off line. I assure you,
you do have an audience listening!! I also am very interested in this
discussion. Although each side is certainly prejudiced (I say this kindly)
to their way of thinking because they represent competing technologies, we
are still seeing a real pros vs. cons sort of battle of ideas. That is
exactly why I monitor this thread (in fact that is why I started it :) ).
I do disagree with you William on the point of the colored text. when
re-reading passages again and again it is nice to be able to focus on the
text that is added in this new response to a response to a response. Speeds
assimilation of the new data added. I vote yes on the colors.
The one improvement I would like to see is more real world metrics to
substantiate the arguments of each side. I'm not trying to pick on anyone in
particular here. For example:
1. Dick mentioned a 14.3 second average in sending a 1K XML message and
getting an functional ack back (Trading partner's confirmation that the
message arrived). Good start for metrics. I would like more details, for
example: how many instances went into the average. was it 3 or 100? what
did the bell curve look like? If 90% between 13 to 17 seconds and the
slowest/fastest was 35/10 this is significantly different than if a high
percentage was at 9 seconds but 17% of the 100 tries was more than 2 minutes
say. I'd want to know what factors cause the 17% because I'd like to know
more about how that much slow down one-sixth of the time would affect me in
the real world.
2. Mark mentioned some interesting numbers on cost. On the other hand, the
metric of "can take up to 100 times as long as a simple deposit of a file",
is too vague. Out of 100 tries was this just once at the far end of the
bell curve. The "up to" part of the statement can be very misleading. What
is the average in a real world, un-prejudiced test? If the average is only
1.3 times as long, that paints an entirely different picture. Also no
actual numbers are given on both sides for anyone else on this list to
dispute. An example could be: a benchmark that says 10,000 attempts to
connect to my VAN from 14 different clients in differing environments took
an average of 2.1 seconds for the complete login, authorization, and ready
to upload state. This was done this many times at peak hours vs. so many in
off hours and here are the complete numbers. THEN we would all have
something concrete we could either accept, dispute, query with further data,
etc.
I am not trying criticize anyone's data here. I am just trying to point out
I'd like to see more metrics in the discussion.
Thanks,
Steve
At 10:40 AM 7/25/00 -0400, William J. Kammerer wrote:
>Dick Brooks, of Group 8760, is "becoming concerned that this thread
>may not be of interest to the entire xmledi list, perhaps we should take
>this discussion off list."
>
>No, Dick, I think it's very interesting. You, Mark Malatak, of
>Fountainhead Communications, and Doug Anderson, of Kleinschmidt, are
>making us all aware of the various pros and cons of direct vs.
>store-and-forward B2B messaging. Why would you want to waste your time
>discussing this off the list, arguing with a competitor in front of no
>audience in particular?
>
>I might request, though, that you organize your e-mails so they are
>readable, even if you have to paraphrase previous comments. This HTML
>and color business is making it too hard to follow.
>
>I'd also like to emphasize that direct point-to-point Internet EDI means
>both or all Trading Partners must use compatible software, and requires
>extensive set-up, key exchange, etc. etc. Moving to Internet EDI is not
>something that makes sense to do all by yourself - it requires lots of
>coordination with your partners.
>
>On the other hand, I would imagine that Doug and Mark would be able to
>move you to their VANs in a short period of time, even if staged. Would
>Doug or Mark be kind enough to give us an overview of the process
>involved in moving all of one's traffic from the big rapacious VANs to
>their gentler, kinder B2B Switches? Please include considerations on VAN
>inter-connects, also.
>
>To Bruce Peat: who's debating XML vs EDI?
>
>William J. Kammerer
>FORESIGHT Corp.
>4950 Blazer Memorial Pkwy.
>Dublin, OH USA 43017-3305
>+1 614 791-1600
>
>Visit FORESIGHT Corp. at http://www.foresightcorp.com/
>"Commerce for a New World"
>
>
>
>
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Steve Bollinger 408-853-8478
Cisco Systems B2B Service Logistics Pjt
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