Gerard,
I agree, there are many opportunities to use XML within healthcare and the
HL7 team is doing a great job of demonstrating this by providing a patient
medical record in XML. Clearly there are opportunities for XML in
healthcare.
BUT, there are other E-Commerce initiatives in healthcare that are based on
X12, HIPAA for example.
Some previous e-mails that have appeared on this list emphatically state
that XML is going to displace other technologies, and perhaps it will. BUT,
marketing hype alone will not make it happen. XML has to provide a complete
replacement of the functionality in the existing solutions PLUS solve the
problems plaguing the existing solutions in order to be considered a viable
replacement. IMHO, XML hasn't met either of these requirements, yet.
XML will be used in niche applications within Healthcare, Energy,
Manufacturing, Retail, Transportation, and others until it has matured to
the point where it makes business sense to use XML as a replacement for
other alternatives. That day may never come, or it may be just around the
corner - my crystal ball is broken. All we can do is continue reading the
pulse of the market until the fog clears.
Dick Brooks
Group 8760
110 12th Street North
Birmingham, AL 35203
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
205-250-8053
Fax: 205-250-8057
http://www.8760.com/
InsideAgent - Empowering e-commerce solutions
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gerard Freriks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 12:18 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: 'XML/EDI Group'
> Subject: RE: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
>
>
> With some knowlegde in Healtcare in Europe and the USA (and else where)
> We, in healthcare, are convinced that XML will enable interoperability.
> In the USa and Europe we have an extensive expertise with Edifact and X12
> like syntaxes.
>
> Why are we convinced?
> Even while using the old syntaxes we felt the need to develop using UML a
> Reference Information Model. And we did.
> - This RIM is extremely easy to convert in XML DTD's.
> - Coverting it in Edifact is difficult at least and sometimes impossible.
> (Security and the possibility to reference at will to other
> objects are the
> first that come to my mind)
> - And impoprtant as well, with XML-Schema's we will have the
> opportinity to
> do datatyping in a very rigerous way.
> - Lastly developping interfaces using XML gives implementers a
> very distinct
> productivity boost.
> (100-200 % better)
>
> In Healthcare the case is closed.
>
> Gerard Freriks
>
>
> ps:
> I forgot to mention the downside of XML and the RIM.
> We must harmonise globally. And we do, and have a lot of fun on the side.
> Edifact is developped to be very economic. In the old days of
> teletypes and
> 1200kb modems we had to. Using XML increases the volumes of the message by
> several factors. But comprssing reduces it to almost the old Edifact
> figures.
>
>
>
>
> |-----Original Message-----
> |From: Jim Szyszko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> |Sent: woensdag 23 augustus 2000 04:34
> |To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'XML/EDI Group'
> |Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> |Subject: RE: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
> |
> |
> |List-
> |I've been a lurker on this list for some time and I
> |would like to make a comment about the exitement
> |regarding XML and its ability to "replace" EDI.
> |
> |Roy makes a good point of dividing the e-commerce
> |connection into three areas, Medium, Syntax, and
> |Semantics, so I will use these terms.
> |
> |The Internet *can* replace the Medium, which is now
> |the expensive VAN's (Value-Added Networks). For that
> |matter, people can e-mail or FTP EDI documents. So
> |long as the receiver is sophisticated enough to
> |receive it, the Medium can change at any time,
> |regardless of whether EDI is used or not. In many
> |cases two parters with massive EDI exchanges elect to
> |use an alternate method because the convenience of the
> |VAN cannot offset its significant dollar costs.
> |
> |Regarding the Syntax and Semantics, XML *can* replace
> |EDI's current syntax and semantics. But, to what
> |discernable benefit?
> |
> |An XML Semantics *can* be a viable replacement if not
> |an improvment upon EDI. XML can use document format
> |descriptions that are more easily read by a human, so
> |that is one benefit.
> |
> |However, the problems which plague EDI will plague its
> |successor, no matter what the form.
> |
> |One of the biggest problems in setting up EDI systems
> |is what Roy refers to as the "Semantics". Namely,
> |with EDI every company in effect uses its own format
> |and its own unique business rules. Take for instance
> |an EDI 850 Purchase Order. Given ten companies, there
> |will most likely be ten different variations. An
> |interface written to accept one EDI 850 will not be
> |able to accept another.
> |
> |EDI uses the ANSI X12 Standard. However, this
> |standard could be compared to the standard of the
> |English language. The words and vocabulary are
> |defined, yes, but tell ten people to write a letter
> |and each will format and phrase it differently. And
> |they do.
> |
> |The current EDI exchange has an advantage that the
> |"Syntax" is already defined. XML must now go through
> |this growing phase, and in the end it will probably
> |resemble the ANSI X12 standard with better
> |descriptions.
> |
> |The only way the inherent e-commerce problem can be
> |solved would be if companies somehow agree to use a
> |common format for their documents. This does not seem
> |practical, however, no matter how attractive the
> |concept.
> |
> |EDI or any replacement in effect connects two
> |businesses with unlike ERP's and unlike business
> |rules. Each ERP will have its own special tehcnical
> |requirements, and business plan has special needs
> |which other business may not use or anticipate. These
> |things contribute to giving EDI a bad reputation, but
> |its replacement will inherit the same.
> |
> |I would encourage any and all responses to this post.
> |
> |Sincerely,
> |Jim Szyszko
> |EDI Contractor
> |
> |--- Roy Roebuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> |> Good comments Rachel. I'd again bring up the point
> |> I've made earlier in the
> |> list about the semantics, syntax, and medium of
> |> human and machine
> |> interchange.
> |>
> |> "Electronic data interchange" involves an
> |> "electronic/electrical" medium of
> |> exchange, the syntax (structural rules) of exchange,
> |> and the semantics
> |> (meaning) of exchange. I have also previously
> |> labeled these medium, syntax,
> |> and semantics terms as information Carriers,
> |> Containers, and Content,
> |> respectively.
> |>
> |> Carriers/Medium would be electronic Value Added
> |> Networks (VAN), private
> |> networks (LAN/WAN, intranet, extranet), public
> |> Networks (Internet or Public
> |> Telephone - PT), etc., along with the physical
> |> carriers such as
> |> shipping/transportation companies, USPS, UPS, Fedex,
> |> etc.
> |>
> |> Containers/Syntax would be some form of data
> |> packaging/storage and
> |> behavior/methods using SGML, XML, SQL, SMTP, HTTP,
> |> S/MIME, EDI Maps, etc.
> |>
> |> Content/Semantics would be the data itself, in a
> |> meaningful, defined, and
> |> shared context (X12, EDIFACT, and other vocabularies
> |> and messages)
> |> documented and baselined in a common reference such
> |> as a dictionary.
> |>
> |> This data interchange would them be applied for
> |> purposes of integration and
> |> communication within a "value lattice" (i.e., a
> |> multilinked value-chain -
> |>
> |http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img006.gif)
> |> (e.g., workflow,
> |> application integration, enterprise application
> |> integration, B2B for direct
> |> relationships, ...B2B2B2B.... for
> |> single-resource-thread relationships, and
> |>
> |> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> |> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> |> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> |> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> |>
> |> forming a global lattice of direct and indirect
> |> economic/ecological and
> |> other relationships flowing from activities to
> |> Extract materiel from the
> |> natural enviroment and information from virtual
> |> environments to activities
> |> to Recycle materiel and information back into the
> |> respective natural or
> |> virtual environments -
> |>
> |http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img092.gif.)
> |>
> |> The choice of Carriers and Containers will evolve
> |> with technology (e.g.,
> |> private nets vs VAN vs Internet) and understanding
> |> of context (e.g., B2B,
> |> E2B2B2B2R), while the Content/Semantics will always
> |> involve humans seeking
> |> and agreeing to communicate, collaborate,
> |> coordinate, and share.
> |>
> |> Roy
> |>
> |>
> |>
> |>
> |>
> |>
> |>
> |> -----Original Message-----
> |> From: Rachel Foerster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> |> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 2:47 PM
> |> To: 'XML/EDI Group'
> |> Subject: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
> |>
> |>
> |> 1. Will the Internet enhance or replace EDI? How and
> |> why?
> |>
> |> A: One first must understand what EDI is....at its
> |> basic definition, it's
> |> electronic
> |> data interchange. This means that companies exchange
> |> data electronically so
> |> that it can automatically be processed by an
> |> automated, intelligent business
> |> system.
> |>
> |> Second, one must then understand what is meant by
> |> the question will the
> |> Internet
> |> replace.....etc.? Fundamentally, the Internet is a
> |> huge global network of
> |> computers
> |> providing almost instantaneous connectivity. Thus,
> |> it's actually the pipe or
> |> conduit
> |> that data/information/other objects can travel
> |> through to get from one
> |> computer
> |> to another. I think that what is actually being
> |> asked by this question is
> |> will the World
> |> Wide Web or the Web replace EDI.
> |>
> |> Of course, the answer is no.....the Internet and the
> |> Web will only add more
> |> capabilities
> |> and flexibility for companies who wish to engage in
> |> electronic business
> |> information
> |> exchanges.
> |>
> |> However, to many people, EDI is actually the current
> |> standards or rules (the
> |> ASC X12
> |> Standards, for example) that are used to structure
> |> data for electronic
> |> exchange.
> |> Hear, hear, Steve,
> |>
> |> Now, to pick up on your closing comment about XML
> |> not being a silver bullet,
> |> etc. I offer the following perspective.
> |> This was information I provided to an editor of a
> |> health care trade journal
> |> since the health care supply chain is mightily
> |> struggling to take the cost out.
> |>
> |> Rachel
> |>
> |> "Q1. Will the Internet enhance or replace EDI? How
> |> and why?
> |> A1. Today, we have a �Tower of Babel� for electronic
> |> data exchange,
> |> proprietary flat file formats, proprietary
> |> non-standard uses of the ASC X12
> |> standards and inconsistent use of the ASC X12
> |> standards. XML therefore is
> |> being
> |> touted as the killer of EDI. However, since XML has
> |> not
> |> yet matured to the level of X12, there is no
> |> standard data dictionary, no
> |> standard tags, and no use of XML. Thus, we are
> |> actually back to the days
> |> before we had X12 as a standard with individual
> |> organizations doing their
> |> own thing with XML. This actually does little to
> |> accomplish data exchange
> |> and systems interoperability, and in my opinion,
> |> even thwarts this goal.
> |> The issue is cost to manage and exchange
> |> information. Ultimately all of the
> |> cost within and throughout the supply chain gets
> |> translated into higher
> |> product costs.
> |>
> |> The real heartburn has been the decades of attempts
> |> to easily, reliably and
> |> cheaply exchange data automatically between
> |> automated business systems
> |> and/or humans without having to write/rewrite custom
> |> interfaces. The
> |> expectation
> |> is that XML will become that universal computer
> |> language of the Internet and
> |> the Web that will enable and facilitate. It is this
> |> that I think people are
> |> thinking
> |> of when they say the Internet will kill EDI.
> |>
> |> There is major global joint effort between UN/CEFACT
> |> and OASIS with hundreds
> |> of participants from all over the work (the ebXML
> |> Initiative) working to
> |> bring more standardization and consistency to using
> |> XML in order to
> |> accomplish the end goal.
> |>
> |> Q2. What's the misperception you've been hearing
> |> about regarding EDI and the
> |> Internet wihtin the healthcare industry?
> |>
> |> A2: One of the primary reasons why healthcare is
> |> having such a difficult
> |> time
> |> with X12 is that there hasn�t been a real commitment
> |> by individual
> |>
> |=== message truncated ===
> |
> |
> |__________________________________________________
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> |
> |
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