well Mdu my response is as folows:
1. The likes of Fekile Mbalula, Vavi and Blade opened the door of insults.even people who could not insult believed that they were capable because vavi said so or fikile said so. 2. JZ has failed to engage Mbeki in many meetings of the ANC. i recall when this thing of political conspiracy gained momentum Mbeki even suggested a commission of enquiry be established to find facts. if you go to ANC archieves" ANC Today" serach : The truth shall be heard" you will understand. now Jz will be exposed and that might lead to his other supporters reviewing their feelings. 3. The ANC is currently struggling with its identity in the current global political environment.The debate was part of Polokwane but as all of us Know Polokwane discussed nothing of substance.Whether people call it a "transition from a liberation movement to a political party" it remains the identity of the ANC post 1994 has not been clear. 4. well Polokwane was a conference of the ANC with branch delegates. factionalism was in a context that for the first time in the ANC leadership was decided out of a process which had 2 contending lists. now Block voting occured informed by the bickering,illdiscipline and humiliation of other leaders. well comrades should refrain from preaching discipline and principle when the consciously know that their behaviour speaks to the contrary. comrades must not debate as if they are addressing the media. Never has ANC been so exposed. lets hope that the truth will be told one day. On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 1:46 PM, sithembele senti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Dear comrades, > > There is one reality that we cannot run away from, an all societies in the > world, issues are organised and represented through various formations and > establishments and those formations are represented by persons, its in the > context of this social traingle that you cannot divorce the person as a > seperate subject from the issues and the formation he or she claims to > represent. > > It is in the same context we were defending Msholozi as a leader of the ANC > and the advocate of the ANC policies, we defended and explained the issues > and questions were raising about him, ranging from morality to academic > qualifications, we understood that there were those who genuinely wanted > explanations, and there are those who were pre empting this talked > about convention today, and therefore we responded to both of those groups > in a manner that we believed was appropriate to each seperate grouping. > > It is again the same context that we are questioning those who purport to > be representing a so called alternative voice to the ANC and ask the > questions like, is there any genuine relationship between them as persons, > as we have known them and the issues they are raising. If they are able to > answer that they must answer and stop undermining the intellect of the South > African people. > > If JZ and the ANC leadership are not beyond reproach, where do they get the > gift to arrogate upon themsleves an indemnity from the srutiny of the South > African People. > > > ------------------------------ > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Re: Denialism,Denialism and illdiscipline > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:19:18 +0200 > > > Comrade Mduduzi, > > I think that the problem in this discussion is entangling the whole host of > issues that are different (even though related) in to one single debate. The > first point is that there are serious challenges in the ANC, there are > various complaints which as members of the ANC we have raised about how > certain structures that are percieved to be supporting a particular leader > have been treated by the respective leadership in different structures, I > can mention to you that the ANC Eastern Cape Congress last year was one > example where the branches that were viewed to be supporting Mcebisi Jonase > and thefore comrade President Zuma were dealt with by the then leadership > that was supporting Stone Sizani and therefore Comrade Thabo Mbeki as > President. The complaints of the various branches from the emahlathini sub > region are sitting at Luthuli House since then. So yes indeed there are > challenges in the ANC and there are many others which you know of, but this > is one but a seperate debate. > > The issue of Terror Lekota, Mluleki Goerge, Mbazima Shilowa and the likes > is a different issue and must be debated as such. The moment you want to > legitimise the issues raised by these individuals in the context of the > genuine challenges within the ANC, you are clouding your debate and > therefore your analysis and conclusions wuold also be clouded and thus > unable to arrive at a particluar logical conclusion coming from a sober and > proper diagnosis of a particular reality. > > Whilst these issues are different but interelated, they should not in > totality be concluded as separate issues, they must be concluded in the > context of their interlinkages. For an example, Every time DA raises issues > purporting to be genuine questions about how our society should be shaped > every body including you jump up and dismiss them, we dismiss them becaiuse > we question their qualifications (not academic this time) to raise those > issues, we say you presided over a period of over thirty years of the issues > you are raising and they never seem to bother you, amid various calls by > various pregressive forces to do just the oppisite. I cannot see How and why > must Lekota and the ilk be treated differently. One example, today Mbazima > is telling the South African public that the electoral system we are > currentling using in South Africa should be reviewed, where the President is > elected by the majority party in parliament and consider the american > system, a system that Mbhazima was violently rejecting not even a year ago > at the time he was a beneficiary of. > > Let us utilise the platform to debate real challenges of the ANC and ponder > various possibilities of solutions and make sure that the ANC becomes the > stronger ANC that build capacity of South Africans to take a responsible > charge of thier lives to the better. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:18:30 +0200 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [YCLSA Discussion] Denialism,Denialism and illdiscipline > > > > *I cannot agree with you, comrade Senzo. Maybe I can If you can clarify > me on the following: * > > > - Who started insulting senior leadership in 2005 - do you have > substantial proof? > - Why do you advice JZ not to accept a public debate? Do you think JZ > cannot stand a debate with TM? > - What do you mean when you say "a liberation movement without a *name > * and now without *leadership*? > - Was Polokwane (which elected the leadership) a factional conference > and not constituted by legitimate branches of the ANC? > > > *These three questions, if answered correctly, can give a full meaning of > your input. However I need to agree with you on the following:* > > - There is a crisis in the ANC, it is evident when members of the > organization pack a hall for the preparation of "Terror's" National > convention to be held on the 2nd of November 2008. > - The Terror situation is qualitatively and quantitatively distinct > from that of both Sobukwe and Holomisa. There time is different so are the > feelings and attitudes of people (in particular members of the ANC - > disgruntled or not). > - Some NEC members are using a language that is un-ANC and insultive in > nature. This has the capacity of setting a tone that cannot be reversed > forever. > - It si TM's right to challenge any legal inferences made on Him in a > court of law - This is one of the values of constitutional democracy. It is > a subjective matter that should not be brought into organizational matters. > - Social ills like character assassination are how comrades conduct > their day to day engagements. > > I do no agree with you that TM has infected people with denialism. He never > denied anything (go through the HIV/AIDS, Zimbabwe and other issues) unless > otherwise you have an information separate from the one I have. Even if > (according to you) he did deny some facts, the current denial is > over-exacerbated. No-one is blind to an extent that he/she cannot see how > positive people view the Terror initiative, one need not be a rocket > scientist to be able to see that. This gesture of attendance to the Lekota > initiative is a clear indication that there is a problem in the ANC and some > members are unhappy. > > I think questioning someone's credentials is another way of sparking > issues. Whether the issues are of substance or not depend on individual > judgement. No one should have a monopoly of wisdom on judging merits and > demerits of issues raised by comrades. If an issue is not appealing to > comrades, comrades should refrain from entertaining such or call order if > one has diverted from the principles of robust engagements. > > There cannot be an era of blindly agreeing with leadership, if deemed > ill-disciplined, disciplinary structures established as per the constitution > should do its task. Members are the determinants of the path to which an > organization should go, thus should be able to oversee the activities of the > leadership - this is what we call vigilance. Should members miss vigilance, > the leadership might alter the path that members elected them to travel. > Hence congress resolves and leadership from all levels facilitate while > members implement. > > > > > This message and any attachments relating to official business of the > Mpumalanga > Provincial Government (MPG) is proprietary to the MPG and intended for the > original addressee only. The message may contain information that is > confidential and subject to legal privilege. Any views expressed in this > message are those of the individual sender. If you receive this message in > error, please notify the original sender immediately and destroy the > original message. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you > are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy, use, distribute, or > take any action in connection therewith. The MPG cannot insure that the > integrity of this communication has been maintained, nor that it is free of > errors, viruses, interception and / or interference. The MPG is not liable > whatsoever for loss or damage resulting from the opening of this message and > / or attachments and / or the use of the information contained in this > message and / or attachments. > > [image: Always stretching our arm, to accelerate service delivery] > <http://www.mpumalanga.gov.za/> > > ------------------------------ > Get the next generation of Free Windows Live Services Click > here!<http://get.live.com/> > > > -- Yours Sincerely Senzo Ncongolo 0743618139 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You are subscribed. This footer can help you. 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