Hi Bill!, To be perfectly honest with you, I don't see the topic of causality to be off topic at all - just annoying because it's going to go around and around (and around) in circles ad infinitum. I think both you and Edgar are correct in what you say about the topic. The only difference is that your view (mine too) is practical and relevant to living a zen life and Edgar's is not.
Mike ----- Original Message ---- From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 19:50:26 Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mark, Mike and Mayka, I'd like to acknowledge my agreement with you about the great chasm that necessarily exists between zen and intellectualization . I'd also like to assure all of you that the current discussion thread on Causality, with is mainly between Edgar and me, has nothing at all to do with zen or Zen Buddhism as far as I'm concerned. It is exactly as you've characterized it - head-candy. I call it verbal Sudoku. The Zen Forum is not an appropriate place for us to have this discussion, and at least on my part I'm willing to shut it down. The thread was a divergence from a legitimate discussion on a topic that is appropriate to zen and Buddhism, the concept of karma. Causality is a kind of value-free version of karma. Thanks for reminding me of the purpose of the forum and the boundaries that should be respected. ...Bill! P.S. For some reason I'm not getting any of Mayka's or Mike's postings. I get Zen Forum postings sent directly to me via email. I only see the postings when someone, like Mark, responds and I see the original posting embedded in his post. I've asked Al to look into this before, but there has been no explanation. Has anyone else noticed this? Or can anyone else offer any possible explanations or suggestions? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Perew Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Mike - A toast to the things I cannot change! On 10/15/08, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.uk> wrote: Hi Mayka, >My knowledge and insight about >consciousness is rather limited. And therefore open to >intelectualization and what is the worst speculation. Being aware of >the harm that intelectualization and speculation can cause I'd rather >keep quiet till real insight cames out. Well said. I really do enjoy reading the intellectual and metaphysical postings here, but at the end of the day, that is all they really are - headcandy for the intellect. That's why I guess I would call myself a Zen Buddhist. The danger of trying to extract zen from Zen Buddhism can lead to the charge that zen is nothing more than an "intellectual exercise" ala JMJM. IMHO an understanding of 'emptiness' without following the Eight Precepts won't lead to a self-transformation as deep as following them. I don't remember who said it, but zen without Zen Buddhism is like an alcoholic going to an AA meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the evening. Mike. ----- Original Message ---- From: Mayka <[EMAIL PROTECTED] et.com> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 14:47:58 Subject: [Zen] Re: TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness Hi Mike; Which of the verses would like a comment?. These last three or previous ones?. If you're refering to these last three verses then in order to understand them one needs first to understand all previous ones. Verses are all linked like an unbreakable chain and at the same time each verse contains also all the rest. Amazing art of writing, isn't it?. However, I'm not making comments at the moment for several reasons; First; it would create intelectual distraction over the readers. Second; Although I had this dharma directly transmitted during a long retreat by Venerable Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. I feel no much confidence yet on the subject. The Nature of Consciousness is a most fascinating subject to discuss about in a dharma group. Of course providing that the ones who take part in such a complex discussion are people with a real realizacion within themselves of the subject discussed and not just vanity and ego. Thanks anyway for your interest. Mayka --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@ ...> wrote: > > Hi Mayka, > > Could you give us a commentary on what those verses mean to you? Thanks. > > Mike. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mayka <flordeloto@ ...> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com > Sent: Wednesday, 15 October, 2008 13:02:22 > Subject: [Zen] TNH - Fifty Verses of the Nature of Consciousness. Part 4, Sense Consciousness > > > Part 4, Sense Consciousness > > Twenty-Eight > > Based on mind consciousness. > The five sense consciousness > separately or together with mind consciousness, > manifest like waves on water. > > Twenty-Nine > > The field of perception is things in themselves. > Their mode of perception is direct. > Their nature can be wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. > They operate on the sense organs and the sensation center of the > brain. > > Thirty > > They arise with the > universal, particular and wholesome, > the basic and secondary unwholesome, > and the indeterminate mental formations. > __________ NOD32 3522 (20081014) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset. com
