My brief comments are embedded below: From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of maitreya003 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 2:18 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Compassion Bill, [Bill!] No cause, no effect, no previous moment. Just now, Just THIS! Just this arose from somewhere. The house that appears NOW arose from the past. The cause of this now is the past. You exist as an illusory form because in the now of the past your parents had sex. If they did not there would be no now for you. If there is no cause and effect there would be no response to my posting from you now. My posting was the cause of your response. This is all illusion yes, but in the illusion cause and effect exists and functions. To deny this is to say that the illusion is the same as your zen experience which then would contradict your belief that this is an illusion. If the illusion is not the same nature as your experience of non-illusion how can you say cause and effect do not exist. They exist in the illusory world, to deny they don't is to say then that the illusory world is the same as your zen experience. [Bill!] Say what? The above paragraph is way too complicated for me to decipher. All I can say in response is that there is no past and no future, just now, so there can be no cause-and-effect. Just THIS! Bill!] What subjective measurement would you put on compassion? To the worldly compassion may be subjective. Some may label certain acts as compassion, others may not [Bill!] No comment. [Bill! too, from an earlier post] What objective measurement would you put on compassion? Compassion has a definitive effect. The measure is again a worldly illusory measure, but it is increased worldly happiness and peace as well as that which brings liberation to others. From virtuous actions arises virtuous effects. Even acts of compassion from those who are just following some guide will have an increasing seeable affect, but there is a difference between acting concepts of compassion and acting out of compassion. Compassion sees others suffering and tries to free others from that suffering, though ultimately compassion transforms the human aggregates to that of a Buddha to perfectly do this. [Bill!] You started this paragraph saying this 'measure is again a worldly illusory measure', so I can't disagree with that. I won't argue with you about your illusions. [Bill! from an earlier post] What do you have to say of compassion when the duality of subject and object dissolve? The compassionate being becomes even more effective in the transformation of others. What do you have to say about the normal self when duality of subject and object dissolve? From your experience you still eat, drink and interact, [Bill!] When duality dissolves there is no self, normal or otherwise - so I say nothing. If subject and object have dissolved how do you chose what to eat or drink, or even to join this site and respond to posts. You express your subjective experience and make use of objective functioning things. [Bill!] Subject/object are not dissolved all the time. I have illusions, and sometimes I have attachments to those illusions. So what? The duality of subject and object dissolving is perfectly expressed through compassion as they have only dissolved for you not the others in the world to which you abide. [Bill!] When subject and object dissolve there are no 'others' - Just THIS! [Bill!] Without self there are no others. There are no others to you because you project no self on others. There is a self that appears even though there is no self to your experience. You project your subjective view of no self onto the objective appearance of the world of form and the others who inhabit it. [Bill!] No. There are no 'others' because there is no self. There is no good because there is no bad. Just THIS! [Bill! from a previous post] Without valuation there is no suffering. There is no suffering for you since you hold no valuation, but others suffer from it. Also with correct valuation there is no suffering as compassion is not a source of suffering. You may say you have no valuation, but from your no self appears a valuation of your experience through your illusory self. You place value on your experience. [Bill!] I didn't say I place value on my experience. I said it is all I have. Everything else is just hearsay, someone else's experience. [Bill! from a previous post] Without effort all things exist. Tell that to the construction workers working in the hot sun to build a sky rise or to the person who works day and night to support their family. Again you are projecting your view of Buddha nature onto the illusion which is just not how the illusion or those in it functions. For you without effort, but for those without your experience, by the sweat of their brow things exist. [Bill!] Okay, I'll change that statement to 'With or without effort, all things exist.' Is that better for you? [Bill!] Compassion does indeed arise from the mind, but like all products of the mind, is not spontaneous. Spontaneous is before mind, before self, before duality, before valuations, before compassion The spontaneous may be before the mind, but when it appears through the mind to the world of form, compassion is spontaneous. It may not be spontaneous for you, but it can be. Your spontaneous nature appears as bill eating and drinking and doing things, a being of compassion spontaneous nature appears through a spontaneous mind of compassion. [Bill!] Read my statement on spontaneity again. If a being acts without engaging the mind (or to be really technical about it - without becoming attached to the engagement of the mind), then he indeed acts spontaneously. If he engages his mind and is attached to it's concepts, like the concept of compassion, and places a value of 'good' on compassion, then he is not acting spontaneously. Bill!] A car is used to go from one place to another. When you realize that one place is no better than any other , attachment to the car dissolves. And like you said you still use it to go here and there. Compassion can be used also without attachment though you do not believe this. [Bill!] I use it to go here and there but I am not attached to it. I don't live in the car.see below. [Bill! from a previous post] You don't live in your car. You do live in your mind and body though and like a car that functions to get you from here to there, the mind and body function. The nature of the mind and body can be changed which in turn changes its function. [Bill!] I live in my mind and body when I create dualities such as self/other. When dualities dissolve so do mind and body. [Bill!] Compassion is an illusion. So is a car, but as you say so long as you are not attached to it you can use it to go here and there. A person can not be attached to compassion and still use it, like a car, to perform a specific function, the liberation of others. [Bill!] Okay, I finally agree with something you've said, although I'd advise you to be careful with the 'specific function' part. That's getting very close to intent, and intent implies something planned, something not spontaneous. Bill!] I am definitely a worldly being. I was meaning a normal worldly view to which your own experience is contra to. Your experience is not shared by most of the world views. [Bill!] It is shared by most of the world's religious teachings, or at least by most of the people on whom religions are founded (even though now the teachings have been polluted), [Bill!] There is indeed a contradiction in your statement above, but it is not what you think. The contradiction is with `liberated being' and `chooses'. I was speaking of your view. Do you not choose anything? Or do you just eat what is offered or is it a spontaneous appearance of your body walking to the fridge to spontaneously grab food? Do you not go anywhere unless requested, or do you just see you body move from place to place doing things? [Bill!] When there is a self, an 'I', then yes, 'I' do all those things. When self dissolves, then no, there is no 'I' no anything to be done. [Bill!] Those that `become one with their true nature' have no NEED to display compassion. This is true. You are right, but those who are not one with their true nature need them to. They have needs liberated beings don't, hence the value in a liberated being abiding spontaneously in a spontaneous mind of compassion. [Bill!] Okay. I just wanted to make that distinction. [Bill!] How can this being have compassion for `others' without first having the illusion of `self'? How can you function and talk to others without first having a view of self? There are illusion others appearing and interacting with your illusion appearing self. The being is aware that there is a self that appears to others but is are not attached to it, just as you have a being the appears and are not attached to it. [Bill!] How can I stay attached to the Earth without having knowledge of gravity? How can I catch a ball without having a knowledge of parabolics? That's how I can function without ABSOLUTUELY having a dualistic self/other split going on all the time. (It does go on most of the time, but not all the time.) Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them. (By dissolving the self you dissolve the concept of others, thereby saving them How is the suffering that is appearing in the now helped by a being who has no concept of self? [Bill!] When self dissolves, attachments dissolve; when attachments dissolve, suffering dissolves. This is Buddhism 101. With eyes one can see how suffering is helped by the mind of compassion. joe [Bill!] Compassion will not end suffering. It might make both you and other's feel better for a while, but the suffering will return. The only way to end suffering is to end attachments; the only way to end attachments is to extinguish your concept of self. The only two ways I know how to do that are zazen (shikan-taza - clear mind), and koan study - although in actuality koan study is really just a technique to lead you to shikan-taza - clear mind. .Bill!