Hi Mayka,
Please know that I did understand your post, and your words were well-written.
I used the word "para-phrase" for two reasons. I wasn't looking at your post
at the time, and was not certain my memory was accurate, as well as being
mindful that these were your impressions, and wanted to make sure others knew
that.
As for TNH..don't mis-understand. I have found many of his books, CD's
lectures and interviews to be very insightful and instructive for me. He makes
me laugh-- a good thing:) I honor and respect his contributions, though I
don't have the same perspective you have about him. Actually, his
'quirkiness" makes him much more approachable in my view, thereby making him
appear very warm and kind.
Take care.. k
--- On Mon, 2/21/11, Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> wrote:
From: Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 10:42 AM
K...
Thank you for sharing your reflections. I can't write English as well as you
do and would like to apologise before hand just in case I failed on clarity and
made use of broken English. Trying my best in the process of English
communication though.
In reference with comments made about TNH. I would like to say that I
consider him as one of my greatest Spiritual Fathers. A father that sits down
on his own throne giving discourses and to whom some of his children can't
approach for real. I didn't choose this gentleman to be my Master Spiritual
Father. It just happened like that in the same way that it happened to have my
blood parents and you your blood parents who gave us life. Not you, not me or
anyone else had a choice in the selection of our blood parents. And someone may
say now: "But that is different as you have a choice in the selection of a
Spiritual Father". To which I would be responding: " Yes, There is a choice
when the choices are based in the self form but there is no choice when they
are found in the non self. the Master Spiritual Father was found first in the
bottom in the bottom of my heart and then the bottom of my heart found its
reflection in the
human form of TNH". Whether TNH recognises or takes care of all his children
or not is a different matter. And yet, because there is no separation between
TNH and myself. I can see what is in him and he can see what is in me too.
Saying this, I can tell you and all that at those moments in which the self
dissolves in the non self , one appears to others as very sweet and naive. But
this doesn't mean that the person loose track of the other reality of the
self. It's just that things are seen under the perspective (if perspective can
be called) of the non self. He's very far of being blind, well on the
contrary, he's very awake. He can be in a room with hundreds of people on it
and he does not loose detail. In a quick look he sees all his audience. He's
like me, like you and ever body else when we all are truly awake.
On the other hand, TNH has all kind of followers which includes all those
annoying sappy mess characters, fanatics, hypocritical, crazy people of all
kinds who only see him as his "Saviour" and all that. They seem to be so
engaged in the form of the Master that are unable to accept or seeing anything
or anyone that is not in the form of the Master!. They don't know yet that the
Master is in the breathe!.
Best
Mayka
--- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Kristy McClain <healthypl...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 8:11
Anthony, Ed, Steve,
Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a
difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which
are partly cathartic for me, if I may. As I read Stuart Lachs' article, I
was interested in his comments on self-interest, authority-figures, and the
choices and consequences of human behavior.
He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in economics
, psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine or reflect human
behavior. As I understand it, self-interest is being free to do what one
wants, whereas selfishness is the exclusive concern with one's own self.
"Game theory", (strategic human behavior), is often used in organizational
settings , to include zen centers. From his discription, a lot of this is
going on in the situations he describes. Before you nod off, bear with me;)
His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I tend to agree
with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a
"parent" in the form of an all-knowing Teacher. I have said this before..
There seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own decisions
and choices. Perhaps they are hedging possible consequences. As if one's
happiness, safety or opportunity resides in someone else.
The "idealized" Teacher..idea has merit, though I have often thought of TNH as
one who embodies the stereotype of the ideal zen teacher. Soft-spoken and
mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and gentle-kind-of-thing. Yet he
defended Baker, who clearly seemed corrupt.
Is that because TNH is too blindly trusting by always assuming the best in
others? Perhaps. But its kinda nice to know that such kind naivté can exist,
even though I don't accept it as wise.
But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority. In the article,
some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role. But remember that
there is no Teacher without students. So, I would argue that students bear an
equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong, as they
did here. Their neediness and own narcississtic needs seem to embue the Teacher
with such powers--and with few questions asked. Common sense and healthy
skepticism can avoid many of these problems.
I thought Mayka made a great observation. Para-phrasing... Look within first
to realize your own experience and awareness. Relying solely on another is not,
by definition, a direct experience. But if reading or other means can open a
door to one's own deeper experience, that can be helpful. So I would call
those an adjunct.
The flip side is that its hard for me to reconcile the changing faces of the
zen students here. On the one hand, we are all one. Show compassion to all.
But the minute they feel betrayed, which I argue they help create via their own
expectations, they now feel victimized. How about allowing the teacher to be
human? Hence--flawed like the rest of us. It is the double standards that set
people up for disappointment and their own suffering.
I have said before that the $$ in spiritual venues can be a a powerful
incentive -- and do corrupt the process. But if you write the check, be
responsible for your own experience, or accept the consequences.I disagree a
bit with his condemnation of 'legitimizing" zen literature and rituals. Goes
back to common sense. They can be useful tools, but if someone believes they
are the holy-grail, they must own the outcome of that naivté.
Personally, I'd love it if Kenneth Arrow put all this on an indifference
curve. (Everyone can ignore that). I said this was part catharsis for me...
In grad school, one of the articles that really influenced me back then was:
[PDF]
Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by GS Becker - 1976 - Cited by 571 - Related articles
Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology. Gary S.
Becker. Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 14, No. 3 (Sep., 1976), 817-826.
...
www.towson.edu/~jpomy/behavioralecon/beckeraltruism76.pdf - Similar
Thanks,
Kristy
p.s. Anthony, I still maintain that the marital discord results from poor
communication from the beginning--but I am not defending his behavior. I'm
simply suggesting that all parties bear some responsibility..
Steve,
Very interesting reading, though I did not go to all details.
I see that Richard Baker and Shimano are two sexual heros. Kapleau and Shunryu
Suzuki seem to be spared of that title. If I am wrong, please correct it.
Of course, sex misconduct is one conspicuous quality. In this case, zen pales
against Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism, as the latter has a famous sex ritual, which
converts the impure into the pure by way of 'celibate sex'. What a wonderful
world. I can't wait to see zen followers converting to Tantrism in large
numbers, setting Chogyam Trungpa and Sogyal Rimpoche as examplary models.
Anthony
Anthony,
Richard Baker and others might respond that that was an excellent opportunity
for his best friend to let go of his clinging, and learn how to better keep his
partner happy.
--ED
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote:
>
> Kristy,
>
> I agree a marital contract can be different types. It is fine if you have sex
> with more than one person, as long as you don't go beyond the 'terms and
> conditions'. As regards the teacher/disciple sexual relationships, our story
> on Richard Baker is a different one. He caused the anger of his best friend,
> because of his affair with the wife. That is where the 'misconduct' had
> harmful consequences.
>
> Anthony
--- On Mon, 2/21/11, Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:
From: Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 12:06 AM
ED,
I just want to make clear that I think when you are talking about this article
and about 'Zen' in general that you are referring to Zen Buddhism. The reason I
want to emphaize this is that I think your justificable criticism and examples
of hypocricy are the result of the Buddhist layers of this, not zen itself.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Zen, like most religious or spiritual paths and practices is riddled
> with unstated or unexamined assumptions and ambiguities. The article
> facilitates the task of identifying them.
>
> --ED
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote:
>
> > Hi ED. While I certainly did find the article interesting, I am
> not likely to start chanting a mantra to it, like the Nichiren people
> do with the Lotus Sutra.
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> </group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=pc1sfmtU7ytUgQpqSNt5PzAT8Ml25vylpEn9AMb6sj\
> Eg1ngTZWNXJAqKzRDzQpY6fbQuOWriqDLMf7_xkg2y> , "ED" <seacrofter001@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Steve and All,
> >
> > This is an extremely informative and brilliantly insightful article,
> > and should be studied and discussed sentence by sentence and paragraph
> > by paragraph to help eradicate any illusions and delusions we might
> hold
> > concerning Zen teachings, Zen practice and Zen teachers.
> >
> > Should anyone choose a sentence, paragraph or section of the article
> > that puzzles them, I would look forward to hearing members'
> viewpoints,
> > and contributing my own two bits to the discussion.
> >
> > Steve, thank you for bringing this article to our notice.
> >
> > --ED
>
