Kristy, If the student feels he has been victimized, the teacher should be punished. If there is no such feeling, there should be no punishment. I don't believe many are so magnanimous as to excuse the teacher after being victimized. Anthony
--- On Tue, 22/2/11, Kristy McClain <[email protected]> wrote: From: Kristy McClain <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, 22 February, 2011, 10:15 AM Anthony, Let me add something else.. I mentioned "game theory" before. A classic example is the "Prisoner's Dilemma", which you may know, or can google. But lets take a simplistic example: Teacher A has committed some type of infraction with Student B. It could be sexual misconduct, theft.. something serious. Teacher A is found out and held accoutntable. TA is publically chastised, forced to make compensation and is thrown out of his position in disgrace. Student B may then be repaid their lost funds, or offered apology and counseling if its sexual, or whatever fits the crime. But how does it really help Student B? The student is angry or hurt or disillusioned or feels ashamed or violated or any of a hundred other emotions. They feel once again--alone, frustrated and deceived. In the end-- we all have to own our own behavior and our expectations of others. I'm the first to admit that growing up is a royal pain in the butt. But the sooner we accept that the brass ring is not oputside ourselves, and that while others can help us--they cannot fix us or save us. We have to-- at some point--embrace our fears and have the strength to find the answers for ourselves. Its up to us to decide how long we want to be potty-trained..;) Thanks.. k --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Kristy McClain <[email protected]> wrote: From: Kristy McClain <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: [email protected] Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 6:34 PM Anthony, Yes, they receive the blame. But why? I think you missed my point. A student has an equal or greater responsibility. They must verify credentials, teaching styles, get references, and the like. To even be educated, they should probably have some emotional maturity and a sense of what they expect to from the experience. They should communicate that. Anthony-- people need to use their head as well as their heart. I am not excusing inappropriate acts or intentions by a Teacher, but such events will continue until students do wake up to the responsibility they have for their own well-being. I recognize its scary for many. But perhaps it is precisely the insight they were seeking in the first place. Kristy --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Anthony Wu <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Wu <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: [email protected] Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 5:01 PM Kristy, You say, 'students bear an equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong,' It is true to some extent. But when the student is the victim, 90% of the responsibility goes to the teacher. Anthony --- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain <[email protected]> wrote: From: Kristy McClain <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: [email protected] Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 4:11 PM Anthony, Ed, Steve, Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which are partly cathartic for me, if I may. As I read Stuart Lachs' article, I was interested in his comments on self-interest, authority-figures, and the choices and consequences of human behavior. He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in economics , psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine or reflect human behavior. As I understand it, self-interest is being free to do what one wants, whereas selfishness is the exclusive concern with one's own self. "Game theory", (strategic human behavior), is often used in organizational settings , to include zen centers. From his discription, a lot of this is going on in the situations he describes. Before you nod off, bear with me;) His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I tend to agree with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a "parent" in the form of an all-knowing Teacher. I have said this before.. There seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own decisions and choices. Perhaps they are hedging possible consequences. As if one's happiness, safety or opportunity resides in someone else. The "idealized" Teacher..idea has merit, though I have often thought of TNH as one who embodies the stereotype of the ideal zen teacher. Soft-spoken and mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and gentle-kind-of-thing. Yet he defended Baker, who clearly seemed corrupt. Is that because TNH is too blindly trusting by always assuming the best in others? Perhaps. But its kinda nice to know that such kind naivté can exist, even though I don't accept it as wise. But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority. In the article, some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role. But remember that there is no Teacher without students. So, I would argue that students bear an equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong, as they did here. Their neediness and own narcississtic needs seem to embue the Teacher with such powers--and with few questions asked. Common sense and healthy skepticism can avoid many of these problems. I thought Mayka made a great observation. Para-phrasing... Look within first to realize your own experience and awareness. Relying solely on another is not, by definition, a direct experience. But if reading or other means can open a door to one's own deeper experience, that can be helpful. So I would call those an adjunct. The flip side is that its hard for me to reconcile the changing faces of the zen students here. On the one hand, we are all one. Show compassion to all. But the minute they feel betrayed, which I argue they help create via their own expectations, they now feel victimized. How about allowing the teacher to be human? Hence--flawed like the rest of us. It is the double standards that set people up for disappointment and their own suffering. I have said before that the $$ in spiritual venues can be a a powerful incentive -- and do corrupt the process. But if you write the check, be responsible for your own experience, or accept the consequences.I disagree a bit with his condemnation of 'legitimizing" zen literature and rituals. Goes back to common sense. They can be useful tools, but if someone believes they are the holy-grail, they must own the outcome of that naivté. Personally, I'd love it if Kenneth Arrow put all this on an indifference curve. (Everyone can ignore that). I said this was part catharsis for me... In grad school, one of the articles that really influenced me back then was: [PDF] Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View by GS Becker - 1976 - Cited by 571 - Related articles Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology. Gary S. Becker. Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 14, No. 3 (Sep., 1976), 817-826. ... www.towson.edu/~jpomy/behavioralecon/beckeraltruism76.pdf - Similar Thanks, Kristy p.s. Anthony, I still maintain that the marital discord results from poor communication from the beginning--but I am not defending his behavior. I'm simply suggesting that all parties bear some responsibility.. Steve, Very interesting reading, though I did not go to all details. I see that Richard Baker and Shimano are two sexual heros. Kapleau and Shunryu Suzuki seem to be spared of that title. If I am wrong, please correct it. Of course, sex misconduct is one conspicuous quality. In this case, zen pales against Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism, as the latter has a famous sex ritual, which converts the impure into the pure by way of 'celibate sex'. What a wonderful world. I can't wait to see zen followers converting to Tantrism in large numbers, setting Chogyam Trungpa and Sogyal Rimpoche as examplary models. Anthony Anthony, Richard Baker and others might respond that that was an excellent opportunity for his best friend to let go of his clinging, and learn how to better keep his partner happy. --ED --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Kristy, > > I agree a marital contract can be different types. It is fine if you have sex > with more than one person, as long as you don't go beyond the 'terms and > conditions'. As regards the teacher/disciple sexual relationships, our story > on Richard Baker is a different one. He caused the anger of his best friend, > because of his affair with the wife. That is where the 'misconduct' had > harmful consequences. > > Anthony --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: From: Bill! <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest To: [email protected] Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 12:06 AM ED, I just want to make clear that I think when you are talking about this article and about 'Zen' in general that you are referring to Zen Buddhism. The reason I want to emphaize this is that I think your justificable criticism and examples of hypocricy are the result of the Buddhist layers of this, not zen itself. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Steve, > > Zen, like most religious or spiritual paths and practices is riddled > with unstated or unexamined assumptions and ambiguities. The article > facilitates the task of identifying them. > > --ED > > > > --- In [email protected], "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote: > > > Hi ED. While I certainly did find the article interesting, I am > not likely to start chanting a mantra to it, like the Nichiren people > do with the Lotus Sutra. > Steve > > > > > --- In [email protected] > </group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=pc1sfmtU7ytUgQpqSNt5PzAT8Ml25vylpEn9AMb6sj\ > Eg1ngTZWNXJAqKzRDzQpY6fbQuOWriqDLMf7_xkg2y> , "ED" <seacrofter001@> > wrote: > > > > Hello Steve and All, > > > > This is an extremely informative and brilliantly insightful article, > > and should be studied and discussed sentence by sentence and paragraph > > by paragraph to help eradicate any illusions and delusions we might > hold > > concerning Zen teachings, Zen practice and Zen teachers. > > > > Should anyone choose a sentence, paragraph or section of the article > > that puzzles them, I would look forward to hearing members' > viewpoints, > > and contributing my own two bits to the discussion. > > > > Steve, thank you for bringing this article to our notice. > > > > --ED >
