Or..."If this is your first night at Fight Club, you HAVE to fight." ...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...> wrote: > > Anthony, >  > Let me add something else.. >  > I mentioned "game theory" before.  A classic example is the "Prisoner's > Dilemma", which you may know, or can google. >  > But lets take a simplistic example: >  > Teacher A has committed some type of infraction with Student B. It could be > sexual misconduct, theft.. something serious. >  > Teacher A is found out and held accoutntable.  TA is publically chastised, > forced to make compensation and is thrown out of his position in disgrace. >  > Student B may then be repaid their lost funds, or offered apology and > counseling if its sexual, or whatever fits the crime. >  > But how does it really help Student B? The student is angry or hurt or > disillusioned or feels ashamed or violated or any of a hundred other > emotions. They feel once again--alone, frustrated and deceived. >  > In the end-- we all have to own our own behavior and our expectations of > others. I'm the first to admit that growing up is a royal pain in the > butt. But the sooner we accept that the brass ring is not oputside > ourselves, and that while others can help us--they cannot fix us or save us. >  > We have to-- at some point--embrace our fears and have the strength to find > the answers for ourselves. Its up to us to decide how long we want to be > potty-trained..;) >  > Thanks.. k > > > --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...> wrote: > > > From: Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 6:34 PM > > >  > > > > > > > > > Anthony, >  > Yes, they receive the blame. But why? I think you missed my point. A > student has an equal or greater responsibility. They must verify > credentials, teaching styles, get references, and the like. To even be > educated, they should probably have some emotional maturity and a sense of > what they expect to from the experience. They should communicate that. >  > Anthony-- people need to use their head as well as their heart. I am not > excusing inappropriate acts or intentions by a Teacher, but such events will > continue until students do wake up to the responsibility they have > for their own well-being. I recognize its scary for many. But perhaps it > is precisely the insight they were seeking in the first place. >  > Kristy >  >  > > > --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > > From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 5:01 PM > > >  > > > > > > > Kristy, >  > You say, 'students bear an equal responsibility in this, especially when > things go wrong,' >  > It is true to some extent. But when the student is the victim, 90% of the > responsibility goes to the teacher. >  > Anthony > > --- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...> wrote: > > > From: Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 4:11 PM > > >  > > > > > > > Anthony, Ed, Steve, >  > Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a > difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which > are partly cathartic for me, if I may.  As I read  Stuart Lachs' > article, I was interested in his comments on self-interest, > authority-figures, and the choices and consequences of human behavior. >  > He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in > economics , psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine or reflect > human behavior. As I understand it,  self-interest is being free to do > what one wants, whereas selfishness is the exclusive concern with one's > own self. "Game theory", (strategic human behavior), is often used in > organizational settings , to include zen centers. From his discription, a > lot of this is going on in the situations he describes. Before you nod > off, bear with me;) >  > His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I tend to agree > with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a > "parent" in the form of an all-knowing  Teacher. I have said this before.. > There seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own > decisions and choices. Perhaps they are hedging possible consequences. > As if one's happiness, safety or opportunity resides in someone else. >  > The "idealized" Teacher..idea has merit, though I have often thought of TNH > as one who embodies the stereotype of the ideal zen teacher. Soft-spoken > and mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and gentle-kind-of-thing. Yet > he defended Baker, who clearly seemed corrupt. >  > Is that because TNH is too blindly trusting by always assuming the best in > others? Perhaps. But its kinda nice to know that such kind naivté can > exist, even though I don't accept it as wise. >  > But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority. In the article, > some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role. But remember > that there is no Teacher without students. So, I would argue that students > bear an equal responsibility in this, especially when things go wrong, > as they did here. Their neediness and own narcississtic needs seem to embue > the Teacher with such powers--and  with few questions asked. Common sense > and healthy skepticism can avoid many of these problems. >  > I thought Mayka made a great observation. Para-phrasing... Look within > first to realize your own experience and awareness. Relying solely on another > is not, by definition, a direct experience. But if reading or other means > can open a door to one's own deeper experience, that can be helpful. > So I would call those an adjunct. >  > The flip side is that its hard for me to reconcile the changing faces of the > zen students here. On the one hand, we are all one. Show compassion to > all. But the minute they feel betrayed, which I argue they help create via > their own expectations, they now  feel victimized. How about allowing > the teacher to be human? Hence--flawed like the rest of us. It is the > double standards that set people up for disappointment and their own > suffering. >  > I have said before that the $$ in spiritual venues can be a  a > powerful incentive -- and do corrupt the process. But if you write the > check, be responsible for your own experience, or accept the consequences.I > disagree a bit with his condemnation of 'legitimizing" zen literature and > rituals. Goes back to common sense. They can be useful tools, but if > someone believes they are the holy-grail, they must own the outcome of that > naivté. >  > Personally, I'd love it if Kenneth Arrow put all this on an indifference > curve. (Everyone can ignore that). I said this was part catharsis for > me... >  >  In grad school, one of the articles that really influenced me back then > was:  > > > > [PDF] > > Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology ... > File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View > by GS Becker - 1976 - Cited by 571 - Related articles > Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology. Gary S. > Becker. Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 14, No. 3 (Sep., 1976), 817-826. > ... > www.towson.edu/~jpomy/behavioralecon/beckeraltruism76.pdf - Similar > >  >  > Thanks, >  > Kristy >  > p.s. Anthony, I still maintain that the marital discord results from poor > communication from the beginning--but I am not defending his behavior. I'm > simply suggesting that all parties bear some responsibility.. >  >  >  > Steve, > >  > Very interesting reading, though I did not go to all details. >  > I see that Richard Baker and Shimano are two sexual heros. Kapleau and > Shunryu Suzuki seem to be spared of that title. If I am wrong, please correct > it. >  > Of course, sex misconduct is one conspicuous quality. In this case, zen pales > against Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism, as the latter has a famous sex ritual, > which converts the impure into the pure by way of 'celibate sex'. What a > wonderful world. I can't wait to see zen followers converting to Tantrism in > large numbers, setting Chogyam Trungpa and Sogyal Rimpoche as examplary > models. >  > Anthony > > > Anthony, > Richard Baker and others might respond that that was an excellent opportunity > for his best friend to let go of his clinging, and learn how to better keep > his partner happy. >  --ED >  > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Kristy, > >  > > I agree a marital contract can be different types. It is fine if you have > > sex with more than one person, as long as you don't go beyond the 'terms > > and conditions'. As regards the teacher/disciple sexual relationships, our > > story on Richard Baker is a different one. He caused the anger of his best > > friend, because of his affair with the wife. That is where the 'misconduct' > > had harmful consequences. > >  > > Anthony > > > > --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 12:06 AM > > >  > > ED, > > I just want to make clear that I think when you are talking about this > article and about 'Zen' in general that you are referring to Zen Buddhism. > The reason I want to emphaize this is that I think your justificable > criticism and examples of hypocricy are the result of the Buddhist layers of > this, not zen itself. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Steve, > > > > Zen, like most religious or spiritual paths and practices is riddled > > with unstated or unexamined assumptions and ambiguities. The article > > facilitates the task of identifying them. > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote: > > > > > Hi ED. While I certainly did find the article interesting, I am > > not likely to start chanting a mantra to it, like the Nichiren people > > do with the Lotus Sutra. > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > </group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=pc1sfmtU7ytUgQpqSNt5PzAT8Ml25vylpEn9AMb6sj\ > > Eg1ngTZWNXJAqKzRDzQpY6fbQuOWriqDLMf7_xkg2y> , "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Steve and All, > > > > > > This is an extremely informative and brilliantly insightful article, > > > and should be studied and discussed sentence by sentence and paragraph > > > by paragraph to help eradicate any illusions and delusions we might > > hold > > > concerning Zen teachings, Zen practice and Zen teachers. > > > > > > Should anyone choose a sentence, paragraph or section of the article > > > that puzzles them, I would look forward to hearing members' > > viewpoints, > > > and contributing my own two bits to the discussion. > > > > > > Steve, thank you for bringing this article to our notice. > > > > > > --ED > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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