Mayka, If "zen" can be dropped - where are you holding it?
Mike ________________________________ From: Maria Lopez <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 28 March, 2011 12:14:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen Bill and Mike: Well what happens is that first is zen buddhism to start with, and alone the practice buddhism is dropped and later on zen is also dropped. Just my version. Mayka --- On Mon, 28/3/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: >From: Bill! <[email protected]> >Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen >To: [email protected] >Date: Monday, 28 March, 2011, 3:44 > > > >Mike, > >I agree with you, but I don't think the overwhelming majority of Zen Buddhists >would...Bill! > >--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: >> >> Bill!, >> >> I think there is a good argument on both sides as to whether Zen Buddhism is >> a > >> religion or not, but I think where Zen Buddhism differs from most religions >> is > >> its exhortation that Buddhism itself must be dropped (carrying the raft >>analogy) >> >> before its ultimate conclusion can be realised. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Mon, 28 March, 2011 11:22:08 >> Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen >> >>  >> Mayka, >> >> There is no religious connotations to TNH's "WAKE UP". Sounds like good pure >>zen >> >> advice to me. >> >> The real question should be 'where is the Buddhism in "WAKE UP?"'. There is >> none, and that's why there is no religious connections. It's the Buddhism >> cloak >> >> wrapped around Zen Buddhism that makes it a relgion - in my opinion. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: >> > >> > Another koan by TNH: >> >  >> > "WAKE UP" >> >  >> > Couldn't be more than zen than that. Where is the religion on it? >> >  >> > Mayka. >> > >> > --- On Sat, 26/3/11, Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen >> > To: [email protected] >> > Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 10:56 >> > >> > >> >  >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Bill: >> >  >> > Zen Buddhism is not a religion but a way of living. A different matter >> > is >>if >> >> >people make from that a religion. And the same rule will be applied to >>those >> >> >who make from zen a religion. No difference.   >> >  >> > My experience here is that if one will follow the instructions given can >> >inmediately have an experience of the present moment. The present moment >>is a >> >> >most important key and cores of zen. >> > >> >  >> > According to my personal experience in the TNH tradition which is Zen >>Buddhism >> >> >this is the much easier and short cut to get into the wave of zen. As >> >zen >>is >> >> >presented in action over the 24 hours a day and not just by sitting down in >>the >> >> >cushion. To me is a much easier way to disclose the insight of the sort >> >of >> >> >koans given in the TNH tradition such as "Present moment, wonderful >>moment" or >> >> >"mindfulness" or "breathe you are alive" rather than the >> >complicated >> >nonsense given by other zen traditions given one just a headache. >> >The >>ones >> >> >given by TNH awakes something in one. >> >  >> > All zen traditions including the Soto have the guides and teachings of the >> >Buddha and sutras as a way to introduction and guidelines. Though it's >>true >> >> >that through practice and in time all that start to be discarded by >>itself. >> >> > >> >  >> > Mayka >> >  >> >  >> >  >> > --- On Sat, 26/3/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: >> > >> > >> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Clues to the meaning of Zen >> > To: [email protected] >> > Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 1:10 >> > >> > >> >  >> > >> > >> > My comments are embedded in your list below. If I don't comment on >> > something it means I agree: >> > >> > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Clues to the meaning of Zen >> > > Because Zen is so hard to explain here are some quotations that may >> > help >> > > you get an idea of it: >> > > >> > > * The essence of Zen Buddhism is achieving enlightenment by seeing >> > > one's original mind (or original nature) directly; without the >> > > intervention of the intellect. >> > > * Zen is big on intuitive understanding, on just 'getting it', and >> > > not so hot on philosophising. >> > > * Zen is concerned with what actually is rather than what we think or >> > > feel about what is. >> > > * Zen is concerned with things as they are, without trying to >> > > interpret them. >> > > * Zen points to something before thinking, before all your ideas. >> > > * The key to Buddhahood in Zen is simply self-knowledge. >> > >> > [Bill!] I don't think 'knowledge' is a good choice of words. I'd >> > substitute 'awareness'. >> > >> > > * To be a human being is to be a Buddha. Buddha nature is just >> > > another name for human nature - true human nature. >> > >> > [Bill!] Buddha Nature applies to all sentient beings, not just humans. >> > >> > > * Zen is simply to be completely alive. >> > > * Zen is short for Zen Buddhism. It is sometimes called a religion >> > > and sometimes called a philosophy. Choose whichever term you prefer; >> > it >> > > simply doesn't matter. >> > >> > [Bill!] I definitely classify Zen Buddhism as a religion. All >> > religions do have some philosophy in them. Just plain 'zen' however is >> > not a religion or a philosphy. (See below) >> > >> > > * Zen is not a philosophy or a religion. >> > > * Zen tries to free the mind from the slavery of words and the >> > > constriction of logic. >> > >> > [Bill!] Zen doesn't 'try' to do anything. >> > >> > > * Zen in its essence is the art of seeing into the nature of one's >> > > own being, and it points the way from bondage to freedom. >> > >> > [Bill!] I don't like the references to 'bondage' and 'freedom'. Zen is >> > not a silver bullet-train to happiness. It is acceptance of life as-is. >> > > * Zen is meditation. >> > >> > >
