Bill,
The experience itself is, as you said, "raw, unadulterated, immediate".
Whatever value we put on the experience, or even the memory of the
experience is already a work of discriminating mind. The mind
discriminates that experience as 'Buddha Mind' or if you have no zen
background, you'd probably call it something else. That is why I don't
rely on my experience as much as anybody else's. It is not because of
the experience itself, but rather because my mind cannot grasp the
experience without being discriminative, without delusions.
Siska
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: * "Bill!" <[email protected]>
*Sender: * [email protected]
*Date: *Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:48:18 -0000
*To: *<[email protected]>
*ReplyTo: * [email protected]
*Subject: *Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
Siska,
Also, referring again to your post below:
You posted: "If I experience it again some time later, perhaps after
other experiences, I might understand it differently."
Yes, that's true also - but (IMO) UNDERSTANDING your experience is
just another example of post-processing by your discriminating mind.
It's your discriminating mind that seeks to 'understand' everything -
to put your memories of experiences into some kind of rational context.
Buddha Mind does not seek understanding, nor context, nor
categorization, nor the results of any of the other activities
performed by your discriminating mind such as I listed below. Buddha
Mind does not seek anything. It is just raw, unadulterated, immediate
sensual experience.
...Bill!
--- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
"Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> Siska,
>
> What you've posted below is definitely true. If you are indeed
interpreting your experience then you can't be sure about it. This
interpretation is done by your discriminating mind.
>
> If however you halt your discriminating mind you can experience
directly without any post-processing (filtering, augmenting,
categorization, judgement, association, interpretation, etc...).
>
> This direct experience is what I call 'Just THIS!'. This direct
experience (sans discriminating mind) goes by many other names:
'Buddha Mind', 'Original Mind', 'Face Before Your Mother Was Born',
'Mu', and can also be expressed non-verbally: 'slap on the floor',
'turning around and walking away', etc...
>
> This direct experience is the essence of zen (IMO), is the
foundation of my zen practice and has been for over 40 years.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > I'm not even sure of my own experience because what I know about
it now is my current interpretation of the experience. If I experience
it again some time later, perhaps after other experiences, I might
understand it differently.
> >
> > If there is something I can be sure of, perhaps it is the
uncertainty itself.
> >
> > Siska
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>
> > Sender: [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:50:48
> > To: <[email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Reply-To: [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
> >
> > Siska,
> >
> > I cannot be sure of my teachers' confirmation. I cannot be sure of
anything but my own experience.
> >
> > Is there anything else you think you can be sure of?
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > How can you or anyone be sure of your/his teacher's
confirmation? Is it not also illusory?
> > >
> > > Siska
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>
> > > Sender: [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:30:53
> > > To: <[email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > Reply-To: [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
> > >
> > > Siska,
> > >
> > > I am sure of this for several reasons:
> > >
> > > The most important reason and the only one that really matters
is that I have experienced Buddha Nature myself. Once you experience
Buddha Nature you know that there is only one experience like this and
there can be no mistaking it for something else. All experiences of
Buddha Nature are the same. I cannot really say for sure that
Siddartha Buddha did experience Buddha Nature; but I can say if he did
(and I believe he did) it was the same experience.
> > >
> > > Secondary reasons are:
> > > - my experience was formally validated by two teachers (zen
masters)of both the Renzai and Soto Japanese Zen Buddhist schools
> > > - my experience was informally validated by many other teachers
and other zen practitioners
> > > - my experience corresponds (in my opinion) with both historical
and modern-day written accounts of the same experience
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Bill,
> > > >
> > > > > there is absolutely no difference in the experience of
Buddha Nature that Siddartha had and the one that is available to you
right now
> > > >
> > > > You seem to be very sure about this. How could you be so sure?
I mean, how can you know what Siddharta experienced?
> > > >
> > > > Siska
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>
> > > > Sender: [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:55:36
> > > > To: <[email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > > > Reply-To: [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
> > > >
> > > > Anthony,
> > > >
> > > > There may indeed be 'advancing developments' of
INTERPRETATIONS of second- and third-hand accounts of what Siddartha
said, but there is absolutely no difference in the experience of
Buddha Nature that Siddartha had and the one that is available to you
right now.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mel,
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > You say, " all we know today are highly likely to
beÃÆ'‚ corruptions of what the old prince may have
uttered."
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Put is in another perspective, they may be the "advancing
developements of what the old price uttered."
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > The question is whether they are for better or for worse, or
it does not matter at all.
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Anthony
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Wed, 22/6/11, Mel <gunnar19632000@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Mel <gunnar19632000@>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan?
> > > > > To: [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Wednesday, 22 June, 2011, 4:58 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I often have problems with seeing myself as a Buddhist of
any sort let alone telling people about it, because I know for a fact
that my beliefs are centered/based on the interpretations of today's
modern day zen teachers such as senseisÃÆ'‚ Deshimaru
and (Shunryu) Suzuki. It hasÃÆ'‚ been a long time since
the old man died and nobody really knew what he said except those who
have actually spent time with him before he died. Nevertheless, I made
the decision to stick with zen
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Fellow 'buddhists', there is no shame in saying or
acknowledgingÃÆ'‚ that all we know today are highly
likely to beÃÆ'‚ corruptions of what the old prince may
have uttered, but do we really care?
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Today, people see my Buddha pendant around my neck, my zen
books, and bowings I make to my meals and
imagesÃÆ'‚ before me. Seeing such, many ask me if I'm
Buddhist, and I just say yes out of convenience
> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > Buddha be praised
> > > > > Mel
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
