Siska, I agree. The Buddha Mind/Nature we call Buddha Mind/Nature is not Buddha Mind/Nature.
I think some old dude named Lao Tsu wrote something like that once: "The Tao [Way] that can be told of is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name." - Tao Te Ching ...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > I understand your point that Buddha Mind or Buddha Nature is not > discriminating mind. I just read your post where you used fire analogy, which > is very clear. > > The mind that calls the Buddha Mind experience as 'Buddha Mind' is already a > discriminating mind. The Buddha Mind would not call itself anything because > it is, as you said, just experience. Therefore, I think this thought of > Buddha Mind experience that comes from discriminating mind is also illusory > just as anything else. > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2011 09:00:49 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > Siska, > > You are absolutely correct is saying your "...mind cannot grasp the > experience without being discriminative, without delusions." In this > statement you are talking about your discriminating mind. > > When I use the term 'Buddha Mind' I am not talking about the discriminating > mind. Another term often used is 'Buddha Nature'. Maybe that's better in > this context. It is not a 'mind' in the sense that it does not post-process > experiences. It is only the awareness of experience. You could just say it > is just experience, nothing else. > > And yes, we all do use our discriminating mind to talk about this, but that > doesn't mean Buddha Nature is part of the discriminaing mind. The term > Buddha Nature, the concept, the memory of Buddha Nature is part of the > disciminating mind. But Buddha Nature exists before the creation of the > dualistic, discriminating mind. > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > The experience itself is, as you said, "raw, unadulterated, immediate". > > > > Whatever value we put on the experience, or even the memory of the > > experience is already a work of discriminating mind. The mind discriminates > > that experience as 'Buddha Mind' or if you have no zen background, you'd > > probably call it something else. That is why I don't rely on my experience > > as much as anybody else's. It is not because of the experience itself, but > > rather because my mind cannot grasp the experience without being > > discriminative, without delusions. > > > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:48:18 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > Siska, > > > > Also, referring again to your post below: > > > > You posted: "If I experience it again some time later, perhaps after other > > experiences, I might understand it differently." > > > > Yes, that's true also - but (IMO) UNDERSTANDING your experience is just > > another example of post-processing by your discriminating mind. It's your > > discriminating mind that seeks to 'understand' everything - to put your > > memories of experiences into some kind of rational context. > > > > Buddha Mind does not seek understanding, nor context, nor categorization, > > nor the results of any of the other activities performed by your > > discriminating mind such as I listed below. Buddha Mind does not seek > > anything. It is just raw, unadulterated, immediate sensual experience. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > What you've posted below is definitely true. If you are indeed > > > interpreting your experience then you can't be sure about it. This > > > interpretation is done by your discriminating mind. > > > > > > If however you halt your discriminating mind you can experience directly > > > without any post-processing (filtering, augmenting, categorization, > > > judgement, association, interpretation, etc...). > > > > > > This direct experience is what I call 'Just THIS!'. This direct > > > experience (sans discriminating mind) goes by many other names: 'Buddha > > > Mind', 'Original Mind', 'Face Before Your Mother Was Born', 'Mu', and can > > > also be expressed non-verbally: 'slap on the floor', 'turning around and > > > walking away', etc... > > > > > > This direct experience is the essence of zen (IMO), is the foundation of > > > my zen practice and has been for over 40 years. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > I'm not even sure of my own experience because what I know about it now > > > > is my current interpretation of the experience. If I experience it > > > > again some time later, perhaps after other experiences, I might > > > > understand it differently. > > > > > > > > If there is something I can be sure of, perhaps it is the uncertainty > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:50:48 > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > I cannot be sure of my teachers' confirmation. I cannot be sure of > > > > anything but my own experience. > > > > > > > > Is there anything else you think you can be sure of? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > How can you or anyone be sure of your/his teacher's confirmation? Is > > > > > it not also illusory? > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:30:53 > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > I am sure of this for several reasons: > > > > > > > > > > The most important reason and the only one that really matters is > > > > > that I have experienced Buddha Nature myself. Once you experience > > > > > Buddha Nature you know that there is only one experience like this > > > > > and there can be no mistaking it for something else. All experiences > > > > > of Buddha Nature are the same. I cannot really say for sure that > > > > > Siddartha Buddha did experience Buddha Nature; but I can say if he > > > > > did (and I believe he did) it was the same experience. > > > > > > > > > > Secondary reasons are: > > > > > - my experience was formally validated by two teachers (zen > > > > > masters)of both the Renzai and Soto Japanese Zen Buddhist schools > > > > > - my experience was informally validated by many other teachers and > > > > > other zen practitioners > > > > > - my experience corresponds (in my opinion) with both historical and > > > > > modern-day written accounts of the same experience > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no difference in the experience of Buddha > > > > > > > Nature that Siddartha had and the one that is available to you > > > > > > > right now > > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to be very sure about this. How could you be so sure? I > > > > > > mean, how can you know what Siddharta experienced? > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:55:36 > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > There may indeed be 'advancing developments' of INTERPRETATIONS of > > > > > > second- and third-hand accounts of what Siddartha said, but there > > > > > > is absolutely no difference in the experience of Buddha Nature that > > > > > > Siddartha had and the one that is available to you right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mel, > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > You say, " all we know today are highly likely to > > > > > > > beÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàcorruptions > > > > > > > of what the old prince may have uttered." > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Put is in another perspective, they may be the "advancing > > > > > > > developements of what the old price uttered." > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > The question is whether they are for better or for worse, or it > > > > > > > does not matter at all. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 22/6/11, Mel <gunnar19632000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Mel <gunnar19632000@> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 22 June, 2011, 4:58 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I often have problems with seeing myself as a Buddhist of any > > > > > > > sort let alone telling people about it, because I know for a fact > > > > > > > that my beliefs are centered/based on the interpretations of > > > > > > > today's modern day zen teachers such as > > > > > > > senseisÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàDeshimaru > > > > > > > and (Shunryu) Suzuki. It > > > > > > > hasÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbeen > > > > > > > a long time since the old man died and nobody really knew what > > > > > > > he said except those who have actually spent time with him before > > > > > > > he died. Nevertheless, I made the decision to stick with zen > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Fellow 'buddhists', there is no shame in saying or > > > > > > > acknowledgingÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthat > > > > > > > all we know today are highly likely to > > > > > > > beÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàcorruptions > > > > > > > of what the old prince may have uttered, but do we really care? > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Today, people see my Buddha pendant around my neck, my zen books, > > > > > > > and bowings I make to my meals and > > > > > > > imagesÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbefore > > > > > > > me. Seeing such, many ask me if I'm Buddhist, and I just say yes > > > > > > > out of convenience > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Buddha be praised > > > > > > > Mel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
