Siska, You are absolutely correct is saying your "...mind cannot grasp the experience without being discriminative, without delusions." In this statement you are talking about your discriminating mind.
When I use the term 'Buddha Mind' I am not talking about the discriminating mind. Another term often used is 'Buddha Nature'. Maybe that's better in this context. It is not a 'mind' in the sense that it does not post-process experiences. It is only the awareness of experience. You could just say it is just experience, nothing else. And yes, we all do use our discriminating mind to talk about this, but that doesn't mean Buddha Nature is part of the discriminaing mind. The term Buddha Nature, the concept, the memory of Buddha Nature is part of the disciminating mind. But Buddha Nature exists before the creation of the dualistic, discriminating mind. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Bill, > > The experience itself is, as you said, "raw, unadulterated, immediate". > > Whatever value we put on the experience, or even the memory of the experience > is already a work of discriminating mind. The mind discriminates that > experience as 'Buddha Mind' or if you have no zen background, you'd probably > call it something else. That is why I don't rely on my experience as much as > anybody else's. It is not because of the experience itself, but rather > because my mind cannot grasp the experience without being discriminative, > without delusions. > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:48:18 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > Siska, > > Also, referring again to your post below: > > You posted: "If I experience it again some time later, perhaps after other > experiences, I might understand it differently." > > Yes, that's true also - but (IMO) UNDERSTANDING your experience is just > another example of post-processing by your discriminating mind. It's your > discriminating mind that seeks to 'understand' everything - to put your > memories of experiences into some kind of rational context. > > Buddha Mind does not seek understanding, nor context, nor categorization, nor > the results of any of the other activities performed by your discriminating > mind such as I listed below. Buddha Mind does not seek anything. It is just > raw, unadulterated, immediate sensual experience. > > ...Bill! > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Siska, > > > > What you've posted below is definitely true. If you are indeed > > interpreting your experience then you can't be sure about it. This > > interpretation is done by your discriminating mind. > > > > If however you halt your discriminating mind you can experience directly > > without any post-processing (filtering, augmenting, categorization, > > judgement, association, interpretation, etc...). > > > > This direct experience is what I call 'Just THIS!'. This direct experience > > (sans discriminating mind) goes by many other names: 'Buddha Mind', > > 'Original Mind', 'Face Before Your Mother Was Born', 'Mu', and can also be > > expressed non-verbally: 'slap on the floor', 'turning around and walking > > away', etc... > > > > This direct experience is the essence of zen (IMO), is the foundation of my > > zen practice and has been for over 40 years. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > I'm not even sure of my own experience because what I know about it now > > > is my current interpretation of the experience. If I experience it again > > > some time later, perhaps after other experiences, I might understand it > > > differently. > > > > > > If there is something I can be sure of, perhaps it is the uncertainty > > > itself. > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:50:48 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > I cannot be sure of my teachers' confirmation. I cannot be sure of > > > anything but my own experience. > > > > > > Is there anything else you think you can be sure of? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > How can you or anyone be sure of your/his teacher's confirmation? Is it > > > > not also illusory? > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:30:53 > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > I am sure of this for several reasons: > > > > > > > > The most important reason and the only one that really matters is that > > > > I have experienced Buddha Nature myself. Once you experience Buddha > > > > Nature you know that there is only one experience like this and there > > > > can be no mistaking it for something else. All experiences of Buddha > > > > Nature are the same. I cannot really say for sure that Siddartha > > > > Buddha did experience Buddha Nature; but I can say if he did (and I > > > > believe he did) it was the same experience. > > > > > > > > Secondary reasons are: > > > > - my experience was formally validated by two teachers (zen masters)of > > > > both the Renzai and Soto Japanese Zen Buddhist schools > > > > - my experience was informally validated by many other teachers and > > > > other zen practitioners > > > > - my experience corresponds (in my opinion) with both historical and > > > > modern-day written accounts of the same experience > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > there is absolutely no difference in the experience of Buddha > > > > > > Nature that Siddartha had and the one that is available to you > > > > > > right now > > > > > > > > > > You seem to be very sure about this. How could you be so sure? I > > > > > mean, how can you know what Siddharta experienced? > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:55:36 > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > There may indeed be 'advancing developments' of INTERPRETATIONS of > > > > > second- and third-hand accounts of what Siddartha said, but there is > > > > > absolutely no difference in the experience of Buddha Nature that > > > > > Siddartha had and the one that is available to you right now. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Mel, > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > You say, " all we know today are highly likely to > > > > > > beÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàcorruptions of what the > > > > > > old prince may have uttered." > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Put is in another perspective, they may be the "advancing > > > > > > developements of what the old price uttered." > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > The question is whether they are for better or for worse, or it > > > > > > does not matter at all. > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 22/6/11, Mel <gunnar19632000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Mel <gunnar19632000@> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why Practice Chan? > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 22 June, 2011, 4:58 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I often have problems with seeing myself as a Buddhist of any sort > > > > > > let alone telling people about it, because I know for a fact that > > > > > > my beliefs are centered/based on the interpretations of today's > > > > > > modern day zen teachers such as > > > > > > senseisÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàDeshimaru and > > > > > > (Shunryu) Suzuki. It > > > > > > hasÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbeen a long time since > > > > > > the old man died and nobody really knew what he said except those > > > > > > who have actually spent time with him before he died. Nevertheless, > > > > > > I made the decision to stick with zen > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Fellow 'buddhists', there is no shame in saying or > > > > > > acknowledgingÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthat all we > > > > > > know today are highly likely to > > > > > > beÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàcorruptions of what the > > > > > > old prince may have uttered, but do we really care? > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Today, people see my Buddha pendant around my neck, my zen books, > > > > > > and bowings I make to my meals and > > > > > > imagesÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbefore me. Seeing > > > > > > such, many ask me if I'm Buddhist, and I just say yes out of > > > > > > convenience > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Buddha be praised > > > > > > Mel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
