Anthony, When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently of you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or separate from you.
I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are illusory. If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! This is my experience...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside > agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, does > that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, does not have > any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. But that is part > of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic than > reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and looting will be out of > control. In that case, believing in God is better than believing in nothing. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > Anthony, > > How are they different concepts? > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist as a > concept in your mind. > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good deeds > lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of [bad] karma > leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise attributng the > enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency such as > karma or God is also just packaging. > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > à> > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > > à> > Anthony, > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that > > definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of > > sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is action and > > > reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha nature). > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven and > > > if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis not at all surprising that you got a funny > > > > reaction from people surrounding you when you said you were interested > > > > in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a > > > > funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to > > > > Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to karma. > > > > The difference between the two is the former insists that karma is your > > > > own business, nobody else can help you change it. However, in Hinduism, > > > > there are powerful deities who respond to your requests and assist you. > > > > Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there are a view I term chaotic > > > > zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or rules. They say > > > > everything is in chaos. On the other hand, you will also hear all kinds > > > > of Buddhist views here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Anthony > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > > > > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although > > > > technically I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety of > > > > tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. > > > > Don't know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple and buddhist > > > > monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except for my > > > > sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books and > > > > notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been > > > > encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they > > > > see it that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are > > > > catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for years). When I > > > > finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she got > > > > disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my church, but > > > > you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I told > > > > her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, and > > > > that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. I get > > > > along great with both of them, known them for several years. My > > > > co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told her I > > > > was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew that > > > > about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been reading up on > > > > buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've been hearing > > > > from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock and > > > > disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before that, I > > > > was discussing various books with another boss that we like to read, > > > > and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He > > > > asked what it was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a > > > > buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism to > > > > be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of philosophy and > > > > religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. When I go online to > > > > Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question pertaining to it, I haven't > > > > had any bad replies over a single question, and if any of you have ever > > > > been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So > > > > it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions from > > > > people I know. > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew when > > > > you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
