Anthony, When we 'break the illusion of self' we break all illusions. We see through all dualistic concepts.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > Jumping into an abyss is a classical zen allegory. It is a good one for the > purpose of breaking illusion of the self. However, it is not for negating > cause-and-effect. In the physical world, you don't jump into an abyss, > because you don't want your body to disintegrate. In other words, there is an > effect to fear. So it is not an illusion. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012, 12:51 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > Anthony, > > Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are allegories > and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories use this device more > than most because much of what zen is about cannot be totally expressed with > words - espcially written words. Face-to-face dialog is better, but as you > know some zen masters tried to express and communicate their experience of > Buddha Nature without words - with just sounds or even just actions. At least > that's my opinion. > > The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what you've > called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an abyss and > contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It would take an act of > either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > > That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to sever all > attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality and throw yourself > into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > à> > Quote:àin zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > > à> > Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that physically? > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > > à> > Siska, > > > > Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > > > The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to > > 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is fundamentally > > chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) > > into pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating some > > pieces with others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship > > to these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these > > cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at the time. They > > are not absolute, objective or real. They are relational, subjective and > > illusory - this is because they are dependent upon your dualistic concept > > of self/other. The illusion of cause-and-effect helps you feel more > > comfortable and gives you a certain sense of control of life. > > > > The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is > > usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. > > > > The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories as > > 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. These > > are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments > > (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your > > fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw > > yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable. > > > > There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > > Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > > > you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > > karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but > > > Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently of > > > you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - > > > outside of and/or separate from you. > > > > > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > > supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from > > > you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are > > > illusory. > > > > > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, > > > there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is > > > not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or > > > described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > Ãâà> > > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside > > > > agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, > > > > does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, > > > > does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of > > > > it. But that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is > > > > more realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and > > > > looting will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is > > > > better than believing in nothing. > > > > Ãâà> > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist > > > > as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good > > > > deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of > > > > [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. > > > > Likewise attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or > > > > cause/effect to an outside agency such as karma or God is also just > > > > packaging. > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that > > > > > definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of > > > > > sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > > > action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > > > > > > nature). > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > > > > > > Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis > > > > > > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from people > > > > > > > surrounding you when you said you were interested in Buddhism. > > > > > > > Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a funnier > > > > > > > response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, > > > > > > > you find different views on it. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > > > > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that > > > > > > > karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. > > > > > > > However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to > > > > > > > your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, > > > > > > > and there are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on > > > > > > > karma, or any laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. On > > > > > > > the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views > > > > > > > here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > > > > > > > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, > > > > > > > although technically I've been exposed to it for many years > > > > > > > through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung > > > > > > > Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the > > > > > > > shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except > > > > > > > for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the > > > > > > > books and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it > > > > > > > has not been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a > > > > > > > groan when they see it that suggests that they are not happy > > > > > > > about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known > > > > > > > for years). When I finally told my sister that I'd like to visit > > > > > > > a temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? You'll never > > > > > > > go with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I > > > > > > > didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I didn't > > > > > > > feel anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel > > > > > > > like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. > > > > > > > I get along great with both of them, known them for several > > > > > > > years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, > > > > > > > so I told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing > > > > > > > that we never knew that about each other. Then I mentioned to her > > > > > > > that I had been reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the > > > > > > > same kind of groan I've been hearing from my family. My boss just > > > > > > > sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. > > > > > > > I couple of weeks or so before that, I was discussing various > > > > > > > books with another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one > > > > > > > I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it > > > > > > > was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a buddhist > > > > > > > theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > > > > > > buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms > > > > > > > of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that > > > > > > > way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a > > > > > > > question pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a > > > > > > > single question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you > > > > > > > know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it really > > > > > > > threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions from people > > > > > > > I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew > > > > > > > when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
