Bill, When can we break the illusion of self so that we don't fear disintegration of our bodies? However the cause and effect of leaping into an abyss and death still exists, whether we are alive or dead. Anthony
________________________________ From: Bill! <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, 13 January 2012, 17:28 Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family react? Anthony, When we 'break the illusion of self' we break all illusions. We see through all dualistic concepts. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > Jumping into an abyss is a classical zen allegory. It is a good one for the > purpose of breaking illusion of the self. However, it is not for negating > cause-and-effect. In the physical world, you don't jump into an abyss, > because you don't want your body to disintegrate. In other words, there is an > effect to fear. So it is not an illusion. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012, 12:51 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > Anthony, > > Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are allegories > and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories use this device more > than most because much of what zen is about cannot be totally expressed with > words - espcially written words. Face-to-face dialog is better, but as you > know some zen masters tried to express and communicate their experience of > Buddha Nature without words - with just sounds or even just actions. At least > that's my opinion. > > The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what you've > called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an abyss and > contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It would take an act of > either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > > That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to sever all > attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality and throw yourself > into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > >  > > Quote: in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > >  > > Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that physically? > >  > > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > >  > > Siska, > > > > Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > > > The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to > > 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is fundamentally > > chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) > > into pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating some > > pieces with others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship > > to these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these > > cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at the time. They > > are not absolute, objective or real. They are relational, subjective and > > illusory - this is because they are dependent upon your dualistic concept > > of self/other. The illusion of cause-and-effect helps you feel more > > comfortable and gives you a certain sense of control of life. > > > > The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is > > usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. > > > > The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories as > > 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. These > > are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments > > (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your > > fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw > > yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable. > > > > There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > > Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > > > you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > > karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but > > > Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently of > > > you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - > > > outside of and/or separate from you. > > > > > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > > supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from > > > you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are > > > illusory. > > > > > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, > > > there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is > > > not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or > > > described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > >  > > > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside > > > > agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, > > > > does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, > > > > does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of > > > > it. But that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is > > > > more realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and > > > > looting will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is > > > > better than believing in nothing. > > > >  > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist > > > > as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good > > > > deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of > > > > [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. > > > > Likewise attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or > > > > cause/effect to an outside agency such as karma or God is also just > > > > packaging. > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that > > > > > definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of > > > > > sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > > > action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > > > > > > nature). > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > > > > > > Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ is > > > > > > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from people > > > > > > > surrounding you when you said you were interested in Buddhism. > > > > > > > Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a funnier > > > > > > > response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, > > > > > > > you find different views on it. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > > > > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that > > > > > > > karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. > > > > > > > However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to > > > > > > > your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, > > > > > > > and there are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on > > > > > > > karma, or any laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. On > > > > > > > the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views > > > > > > > here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > > > > > > > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, > > > > > > > although technically I've been exposed to it for many years > > > > > > > through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung > > > > > > > Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the > > > > > > > shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except > > > > > > > for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the > > > > > > > books and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it > > > > > > > has not been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a > > > > > > > groan when they see it that suggests that they are not happy > > > > > > > about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known > > > > > > > for years). When I finally told my sister that I'd like to visit > > > > > > > a temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? You'll never > > > > > > > go with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I > > > > > > > didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I didn't > > > > > > > feel anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel > > > > > > > like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. > > > > > > > I get along great with both of them, known them for several > > > > > > > years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, > > > > > > > so I told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing > > > > > > > that we never knew that about each other. Then I mentioned to her > > > > > > > that I had been reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the > > > > > > > same kind of groan I've been hearing from my family. My boss just > > > > > > > sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. > > > > > > > I couple of weeks or so before that, I was discussing various > > > > > > > books with another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one > > > > > > > I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it > > > > > > > was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a buddhist > > > > > > > theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > > > > > > buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms > > > > > > > of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that > > > > > > > way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a > > > > > > > question pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a > > > > > > > single question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you > > > > > > > know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it really > > > > > > > threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions from people > > > > > > > I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew > > > > > > > when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
