Siska, Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory.
The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating some pieces with others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a certain sense of control of life. The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable. There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > Anthony, > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. > When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that karma exists > independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be > done' you are implying that God exists independently of you. You are > implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or > separate from you. > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their supposed > attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from you. That > are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are illusory. > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, > there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is not > the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or > described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > This is my experience...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > >  > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside > > agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, does > > that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, does not > > have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. But that > > is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic > > than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and looting will be out > > of control. In that case, believing in God is better than believing in > > nothing. > >  > > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > >  > > Anthony, > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist as > > a concept in your mind. > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good deeds > > lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of [bad] karma > > leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise attributng > > the enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency > > such as karma or God is also just packaging. > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > à> > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > à> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > à> > > Anthony, > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that > > > definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of > > > sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is action > > > > and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha nature). > > > > Ãâà> > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven > > > > and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis not at all surprising that you got a funny > > > > > reaction from people surrounding you when you said you were > > > > > interested in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and > > > > > you get a funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile > > > > > to Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that > > > > > karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. > > > > > However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to your > > > > > requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there > > > > > are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on karma, or any > > > > > laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. On the other hand, > > > > > you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope you have > > > > > fun here. > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > > > > > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although > > > > > technically I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety > > > > > of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend > > > > > Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple and > > > > > buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except for > > > > > my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books > > > > > and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been > > > > > encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they > > > > > see it that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are > > > > > catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for years). When I > > > > > finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she > > > > > got disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my church, > > > > > but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I > > > > > told her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism > > > > > anymore, and that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She > > > > > wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. I > > > > > get along great with both of them, known them for several years. My > > > > > co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told her > > > > > I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew > > > > > that about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been > > > > > reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan > > > > > I've been hearing from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look of > > > > > shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so > > > > > before that, I was discussing various books with another boss that we > > > > > like to read, and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the > > > > > Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it was about so I told him, and when > > > > > I mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism > > > > > to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of > > > > > philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. > > > > > When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question > > > > > pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single > > > > > question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you know they > > > > > can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it really threw me for a > > > > > loop seeing all these crazy reactions from people I know. > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew when > > > > > you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
