Kirk, Even a Zen traditionalist wouldn't be too concerned about Ginsberg's and Watts' Zen. People can experience Zen/zen whether they've heard of it previously, or not, Indeed, it's possible to 'experience' Zen even be those following an orthodox, theistic religion (Imagine their Household Meetings!). So just because Watts and Ginsberg shagged around, smoked, drank and taught/practiced other Eastern philosophies, it doesn't follow that they can't Zen/zen (Yes, meant as a verb).
Mike --- On Thu, 5/4/12, salik888 <[email protected]> wrote: From: salik888 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] Commanding Self, Education and perhaps growing something To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, 5 April, 2012, 6:10 Edgar I don't know if there was any Zen in Watts or Ginsberg, in reality, if you look at their lives, there was much more than just Zen, or little zen, as some want it. Nevertheless, zen/Zen/sufism/Sufism/Fourth Way/fourth way/the work/The Work . . . addresses presence and education, or shall we say conditioning, which has always been with us. They seek to address mechanical behavior . . . even mechanical zen/Zen behavior. best wishes Kirk --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > I knew Ginsberg back in the 60's and wasn't too impressed with his Zen which > was mixed in with a lot of other stuff and not very pure. But hey so was mine > at the time! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 4, 2012, at 2:00 PM, salik888 wrote: > > > Greetings > > > > This comes from Alan Watts's Houseboat Meetings, with Gary Snyder, Alan > > Ginsberg, and Timothy Leary. > > > > Interesting in reference to the Sufism not mentioned by mentioned of Idries > > Shah at the time. If one revisits the work of Shah and Alan Watts, their > > are parallels -- both are opening a discussion about the decay of Tradition > > and the lost access of the esoteric . . . and in many ways, from a > > sociological view . . . are addressing a first things first, a > > familiarization of the individual with the real education of being and > > doing. > > > > I think both of them would agree that there is nothing wrong with going on > > and on and on about God, a sort of Lord Lord Lord thing, as if something > > off in the future was going to take place, when in essence there is nothing > > else than the here and now, but often deluged by past recriminations and > > learned behavior and incessant worry about the future . . . > > > > Watts and Snyder appear to me to be addressing the essential human element > > we all share, and in my humble opinion Sufism and various Esoteric strains > > seek to address . . . unification of mind, body and spirit instead of > > learning by rote. > > > > In short we need to learn to perhaps grown something, I think Rumi and > > Saadi would agree? > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > CEREBRAL "FREAK OUTS" > > Snyder: No, they can't do what they've done through history. What is very > > important here is, besides taking acid, is that people learn the techniques > > which have been forgotten. That they learn new structures, and new > > techniques. Like, you just can't go out and grow vegetables, man. You've > > got to learn HOW to do it. Like we've gotta learn to do a lot of things > > we've forgotten to do. > > > > Leary: I agree. > > > > Watts: That is very true, Gary. Our educational system, in its entirety, > > does nothing to give us any kind of material competence. In other words, we > > don't learn how to cook, how to make clothes, how to build houses, how to > > make love, or to do any of the absolutely fundamental things of life. The > > whole education that we get for our children in school is entirely in terms > > of abstractions. It trains you to be an insurance salesman or a bureaucrat, > > or some kind of cerebral character. > > > > Leary: Yes...it's exactly there that, I think, a clear-cut statement is > > needed. The American educational system is a narcotic, addictive process... > > > > _________________________________ > > > > Best wishes > > > > Kirk > > > > > > > > > > TODAY(Beta) • Powered by Yahoo! > > Pro baseball team's humiliating loss > > It was just a charity game, but the Baltimore Orioles may need some time to > > forget this one. > > Privacy Policy >
