Mike I would tend to agree, and for the sake of association, I could refer our posters to the work of Watts, particularly The Wisdom of Insecurity and The Way of Zen, where he points out the conventional nature of language, its limitations when conveying inner truths/truth (thus zen/Big Zen/Sufis, etc). And using the limitations of what we have, Zen, for lack of better expression, is pure esoterism . . . thus, just sitting, or just this, throwing the seeker inconoclastically back on his or her own efforts/experience. Dogen's Zen is not Kirk's Zen, but in another manner Dogen's Zen is exactly Mike and Kirk's Zen. So, what you say about Traditional Religion, let's say a Muslim who practices Murqababa.
Kirk --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Kirk, > > Even a Zen traditionalist wouldn't be too concerned about Ginsberg's and > Watts' Zen. People can experience Zen/zen whether they've heard of it > previously, or not, Indeed, it's possible to 'experience' Zen even be those > following an orthodox, theistic religion (Imagine their Household Meetings!). > So just because Watts and Ginsberg shagged around, smoked, drank and > taught/practiced other Eastern philosophies, it doesn't follow that they > can't Zen/zen (Yes, meant as a verb). > > Mike > > --- On Thu, 5/4/12, salik888 <novelidea8@...> wrote: > > From: salik888 <novelidea8@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Commanding Self, Education and perhaps growing something > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, 5 April, 2012, 6:10 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > I don't know if there was any Zen in Watts or Ginsberg, in reality, if you > look at their lives, there was much more than just Zen, or little zen, as > some want it. > > > > Nevertheless, zen/Zen/sufism/Sufism/Fourth Way/fourth way/the work/The Work . > . . addresses presence and education, or shall we say conditioning, which has > always been with us. > > > > They seek to address mechanical behavior . . . even mechanical zen/Zen > behavior. > > > > best wishes > > > > Kirk > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > I knew Ginsberg back in the 60's and wasn't too impressed with his Zen > > which was mixed in with a lot of other stuff and not very pure. But hey so > > was mine at the time! > > > :-) > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 4, 2012, at 2:00 PM, salik888 wrote: > > > > > > > Greetings > > > > > > > > This comes from Alan Watts's Houseboat Meetings, with Gary Snyder, Alan > > > Ginsberg, and Timothy Leary. > > > > > > > > Interesting in reference to the Sufism not mentioned by mentioned of > > > Idries Shah at the time. If one revisits the work of Shah and Alan Watts, > > > their are parallels -- both are opening a discussion about the decay of > > > Tradition and the lost access of the esoteric . . . and in many ways, > > > from a sociological view . . . are addressing a first things first, a > > > familiarization of the individual with the real education of being and > > > doing. > > > > > > > > I think both of them would agree that there is nothing wrong with going > > > on and on and on about God, a sort of Lord Lord Lord thing, as if > > > something off in the future was going to take place, when in essence > > > there is nothing else than the here and now, but often deluged by past > > > recriminations and learned behavior and incessant worry about the future > > > . . . > > > > > > > > Watts and Snyder appear to me to be addressing the essential human > > > element we all share, and in my humble opinion Sufism and various > > > Esoteric strains seek to address . . . unification of mind, body and > > > spirit instead of learning by rote. > > > > > > > > In short we need to learn to perhaps grown something, I think Rumi and > > > Saadi would agree? > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > CEREBRAL "FREAK OUTS" > > > > Snyder: No, they can't do what they've done through history. What is very > > > important here is, besides taking acid, is that people learn the > > > techniques which have been forgotten. That they learn new structures, and > > > new techniques. Like, you just can't go out and grow vegetables, man. > > > You've got to learn HOW to do it. Like we've gotta learn to do a lot of > > > things we've forgotten to do. > > > > > > > > Leary: I agree. > > > > > > > > Watts: That is very true, Gary. Our educational system, in its entirety, > > > does nothing to give us any kind of material competence. In other words, > > > we don't learn how to cook, how to make clothes, how to build houses, how > > > to make love, or to do any of the absolutely fundamental things of life. > > > The whole education that we get for our children in school is entirely in > > > terms of abstractions. It trains you to be an insurance salesman or a > > > bureaucrat, or some kind of cerebral character. > > > > > > > > Leary: Yes...it's exactly there that, I think, a clear-cut statement is > > > needed. The American educational system is a narcotic, addictive > > > process... > > > > > > > > _________________________________ > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > > > Kirk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TODAY(Beta) ⢠Powered by Yahoo! > > > > Pro baseball team's humiliating loss > > > > It was just a charity game, but the Baltimore Orioles may need some time > > > to forget this one. > > > > Privacy Policy > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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