Fine discussion; tnx. I hope I understand your rephrasing.
I think that all or most zen teachers can be counted on to do the right thing
for you, whatever you may need (to awaken, and to have the experience of
emptiness, and to maintain this).
If they sell water by the river, just wait until you have tasted it on the day
you awaken, and for the weeks and months afterwards, if you have not already.
It's not special, once you have tasted it.
As far as orthodoxy is concerned, all I mean to try to convey is that the
Buddhist scriptures support what zen teachers say, and teach, and that the
sutras confirm the experience of emptiness which zen students experience
through their work with their teacher and sangha in one's practice.
One can test one's awakening against the scriptures to see if it measures up,
in case a zen teacher is not around to do the testing. But it's still safest
to see the teacher, especially when we are green.
--Joe
PS Zen teachers recognize that there are "Outer Paths", which are not Ch'an.
These are the esoteric schools, and even Tantric schools. They may emphasize
development of sidhis, powers, etc., and tend to de-emphasize the primacy of
emptiness. Although these things come along naturally with Ch'an
enlightenment, Ch'an de-emphasizes them, accepts them, but does not teach ways
to enhance or exploit them, and instead uniformly emphasizes emptiness, from
which spring (operate naturally...) wisdom, and compassion.
Wisdom and Compassion, springing from emptiness, are the important things in
the Mahayana for a Bodhisattva; siddhis are not.
Theravada is different, perhaps, along with Vajrayana; I don't know.
--Joe
> Let me rephrase my question:
>
> Is there orthodoxy, inside of which is the experience of ordinary reality
> and outside of which is delusion?
>
> the question falls apart in the face of the current moment. I ask it
> because your words seem to show a belief that Zen teachers do something
> other than sell water by the river, or that there is some right Zen and
> some other different stuff. Sorry if i am confused.
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