Joe, Tantra also emphasizes emptiness, but in a different way than zen. The former can use a woman to represent emptiness. So they use a 'sex ritual' to attain it. What do you think of that? Anthony
________________________________ From: Chris Austin-Lane <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, 10 July 2012, 22:37 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Nisargadatta Maharaj at odds with Zen? So you On Jul 9, 2012 9:40 PM, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Fine discussion; tnx. I hope I understand your rephrasing. > > I think that all or most zen teachers can be counted on to do the right thing > for you, whatever you may need (to awaken, and to have the experience of > emptiness, and to maintain this). In my experience coworkers, spouses, children, dogs and spiders can also be counted on. "when you first trod upon the Buddha path, 10,000 Boddhisattvas spring up to assist." Everything around constantly busts up thoughts and points to this moment. the teachers laughing dismissal of judging thoughts in dokusan is an.opportunity, as is the fumble footed kinhin leader. > > If they sell water by the river, just wait until you have tasted it on the > day you awaken, and for the weeks and months afterwards, if you have not > already. It's not special, once you have tasted it. This picture is seems to point away from the fundamental wholeness of each moment. Reading it, the whole panoply of something to be gained is activated in my brain, till i laugh and sigh. > > As far as orthodoxy is concerned, all I mean to try to convey is that the > Buddhist scriptures support what zen teachers say, and teach, and that the > sutras confirm the experience of emptiness which zen students experience > through their work with their teacher and sangha in one's practice. you don't say it out right, but it keeps sounding like without work we are in danger of experiencing something other than emptiness. which would sound absurd! next you will be claiming that if we work hard enough, we will lose a real self. > > One can test one's awakening against the scriptures to see if it measures up, > in case a zen teacher is not around to do the testing. But it's still safest > to see the teacher, especially when we are green. Ha, that is funny. Hmm, let me measure this discrete thing. > > --Joe > > PS Zen teachers recognize that there are "Outer Paths", which are not Ch'an. > These are the esoteric schools, and even Tantric schools. They may > emphasize development of sidhis, powers, etc., and tend to de-emphasize the > primacy of emptiness. Although these things come along naturally with Ch'an > enlightenment, Ch'an de-emphasizes them, accepts them, but does not teach > ways to enhance or exploit them, and instead uniformly emphasizes emptiness, > from which spring (operate naturally...) wisdom, and compassion. > > Wisdom and Compassion, springing from emptiness, are the important things in > the Mahayana for a Bodhisattva; siddhis are not. > > Theravada is different, perhaps, along with Vajrayana; I don't know. > > --Joe > > > Let me rephrase my question: > > > > Is there orthodoxy, inside of which is the experience of ordinary reality > > and outside of which is delusion? > > > > the question falls apart in the face of the current moment. I ask it > > because your words seem to show a belief that Zen teachers do something > > other than sell water by the river, or that there is some right Zen and > > some other different stuff. Sorry if i am confused. > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
