Mike, I agree with your 99% estimate but I think that is because the terminology has been corrupted. Jesus spoke many times in parables. The ancient zen masters were very cautious of using words just for this reason.
Anyway, the bottom line I find teachings (maybe better termed as 'reinforcements') everywhere I look. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > Fair enough on using many sources on your path, but your interpretation of > the Bible is not what 99.9% of Christians would agree with. That almost > completely contradicts what you said about getting your terminology right. > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:49 > Subject: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > >  > Mike, > > I use all the tools in my tool bag, not just one. > > Aesop's Fables is one of the books I have and read often. It's full of what > I would consider wisdom just as sound as the teachings of Buddha and Jesus. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > Then that doesn't make the Bible any truer, or better, than reflecting on a > > book on Aesop's Fables (Aesop's Fables seems a damn sight better source for > > morals than the Bible tho). > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:34 > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > > > > > à> > Mike, > > > > No, these kinds of intellectualizations don't make these stories 'true' and > > more than a koan is 'true'. They can though be helpful as long as you > > don't attach to them. Then they are the finger you become fixated on. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > That's an interesting idea. It sounds like something Joesph Campbell > > > would say. Maybe our splitting from God represents the beginning of > > > dualism and the desire for the search back to the One again? Interesting. > > > Just as I'm sure people were awakened to Buddha Nature before Guatama, so > > > to many of the stories in the Bible predate the first writing of the > > > first scrolls. The Flood springs to mind. Still doesn't make the stories > > > true tho. > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:01 > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Mike, > > > > > > I believe the story in the Bible of the 'Garden of Eden' is a > > > mythologized description of what mankind's life was like before he became > > > too dependent upon and attached to his rational mind (dualism - Knowledge > > > of Good and Evil). Before that he lived at one with God - in the Garden > > > of Eden. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > It's a nice sentiment to try to do that, isn't it? I guess the problem > > > > is is that we collect too much dust in our eyes as we acquire more of > > > > what the world teaches us. I do have a vague memory/feeling > > > > tho,ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàof playing in my parent's garden and it being > > > > what the Garden of Eden must be like. I would've been less surprised to > > > > come across the Cheshire Cat than I would if I'd come across the tabby > > > > next door. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>To: "[email protected]" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 8:56 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàlook at life through the eyes of a young child... > > > > fresh, always alert and forever curious..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > >So I guess my question is that having now had a great deal more chance > > > > to see from the non-dual perspective, do you find that the initial > > > > experience you wrote about was really basically ordinary, but so far > > > > our of your thinking that you were surprised at its nature? > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàOr do you find it leaves you feeling there is some > > > > progression to your practice and > > > > liberation, and your ordinary experience before that seeing is not like > > > > your ordinary experience now? < > > > > > > > > Thanks for reading and asking questions. All I can say about it is that > > > > the objects we normally take for granted were seen as they really are > > > > because the web of concepts we usually overlay them with was removed. > > > > They just were. It struck me at the time (during the episode) that > > > > seeing this way was the most natural and real way of seeing, except not > > > > seeing with the eyes, and that it was all so obvious. It was more like > > > > the objects were and I wasn't (Which is why Dogen's '10,000 things' > > > > resonates). I have to say that my ordinary experience is not like it > > > > was before, but neither is it like it was during the experience, which > > > > is why I do feel there is some progression to my practice and > > > > liberation. It's not for the purpose of recapturing a past experience > > > > (like a drug high), but to get to the bottom of what it's all about. In > > > > a way, I've answered 'yes' to both your questions, but contradictions > > > > seem okay now, too. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 4:15 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > This thread has been very interesting, but I have a question for Mike. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI am honored that you shared your experience with > > > > us, and I hope I can address a question without antagonizing you - it's > > > > a real question I have, and I am perfectly willing to hear any honest > > > > answer. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > As far as I can tell, every time one slows down the rush of thinking a > > > > bit, out pops such a lovely universe as these dramatic experiences seem > > > > to highlight. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàBut, other than the strong emotions, > > > > I don't read anything in these mystical experiences that isn't there > > > > each moment, in the quiet still space that attending lets us notice. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàAfter each > > > > exhalation, perfect stillness, balanced on the burning tip of creation. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàSomething like that. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > I've not had an enlightenment experience as a part of zen training*, > > > > but they don't read as different from my frequent realizing I'm lost in > > > > day dreams and returning to attentive zazen - tho that realization is > > > > rather dull, it has the full sense of okness and the noticeable lack of > > > > distinct boundaries. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàWhen I stop crinkling up my > > > > mind, and attend to what Bill! calls raw sensory input, living is > > > > awfully pretty and crystalline and wonderful; even in the middle of an > > > > argument with my wife or kids, here we are; how can I not smile a bit > > > > (unless it would upset the companions)? ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI have a > > > > fairly pleasant and orderly life, to be sure, but even crashing on my > > > > bike is interesting. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThat slight shift in > > > > perspective happens many times a day, but each time I let go (of *my* > > > > thoughts, *my* preferences, *my* expectations), my ass unclenches and I > > > > find that the moment is indeed complete and sufficient. > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > So I guess my question is that having now had a great deal more chance > > > > to see from the non-dual perspective, do you find that the initial > > > > experience you wrote about was really basically ordinary, but so far > > > > our of your thinking that you were surprised at its nature? > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàOr do you find it leaves you feeling there is some > > > > progression to your practice and liberation, and your ordinary > > > > experience before that seeing is not like your ordinary experience > > > > now?ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > chris@ > > > > +1-301-270-6524 > > > > > > > > *I had a couple of "it's ok, all is one" experiences as a child, and > > > > occasionally as a parent (being a parent seems to for me to bring out > > > > all sorts of states of love and wonder, due I guess to the physical > > > > exhaustion, total dedication, and lack of personal wilfulness), that > > > > seem sort of like what people describe, tho of course it had nothing to > > > > do with zen training as I only started that a few years ago. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Joe <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ed, > > > > > > > > > >Hugh bet that zen teachers use the word "samadhi'. > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàNot many talk > > > > >about it. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàExcept in dokusan. > > > > >ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIt's not a secret, but maybe since > > > > >about half the folks on sesshin are pretty new, teachers do not make > > > > >a big deal about it in public, while the old-timers of course are > > > > >just bathed in it, to their eyebrows. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàOr we can > > > > >hope, so. > > > > > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Mike, > > > > >> > > > > >> Samadhi has numerous meanings. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàWhat do you mean > > > > >> by 'samadhi'? ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàJoe, > > > > >> what do you mean by 'samadhi' ? ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > >> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàDo Zen masters ever use the term > > > > >> 'samadhi'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > >Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or > > > > >are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
