you'd be surprised mike..you probably have ..takes time to realise..merle So simple it's taken me 48 years and I still haven't mastered it. I can do it in my sleep tho ; )
Mike ________________________________ From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2012, 1:37 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen indeed..so simple eh?..merle Merle, >when you kneel on your prayer mat is it just you and you alone that is there? are are you perhaps in union with the creative force of life?. There's just breathing. In and out. In and out... Mike ________________________________ From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2012, 1:21 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen mike. .the teacher comes out in me.... jainism... yes have studied that...you are on a spiritual journey mike..sometimes the sea can be choppy sometimes calm. ..isn't it fun?. .. if you do not see anything wise in the teachings of jesus be it so.. .a creator you do not wish for...so who is mother nature?..have you dismissed her as well?.. . when you kneel on your prayer mat is it just you and you alone that is there? are are you perhaps in union with the creative force of life?. .. can you not feel the beauty of life in all it's shades and colours and shapes negative and positive?. .. the journey mike..avoid getting side-tracked by rules and regulations set down by men.. .they so desperately want you in their numbers game so they feel safe and secure. ..it's your journey.. ...watch you step as you go less you fall upon lesser fertile soil and end up in the abyss. .. happy wandering... as the saying goes. .i'll take the high road and you'll take the low road.." ..yes it is a song ..so sing it with glee and rejoice that you have breath...what the hell more do you want? merle Merle, I'm not sure why you're so bothered by my lack of interest in Christianity. I'm sure there's something in there for you, but I'm completely disinterested. Yes, I probably feel that way, in large part, to how I see Christians act in the world (anti-gay; covering up child abuse; prohibiting the means to stopping the spread of AIDS; there's only THIS WAY! evangelicism destroying cultures, to name just a few). I understand that there is the institution of the church on one side and the 'message' on the other, but even philosophically it just doesn't resonate (Never mind scientifically). That Heaven watched the suffering of homo sapiens for hundreds of thousands of years, with complete indifference, and then a mere 2,000 years ago decided 'Now"' is the time to intervene and spread his message to a bronze age, semi-literate, desert dwelling tribe just beggars belief. I have read the mystical accounts of the Christian mystics - particularly the works of St John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila, as well as the Cloud of Unknowing. Yes, I've also read Thomas merton, too. In fact, Teresa of Avila seems to be talking a bout the stages of the jhanas in her metaphor of going into the seven rooms of a castle (or possibly even the 7 chakras). The problem for me is that these mystical/jhanic/smadhi states are available to all and are as natural as sneezing and the methods to experience them are basically secular and scientific (concentration on the breath being the most accessible). But what tends to happen when a person in an established religion experiences them, is that they overlay them with the religious beliefs and iconsnthey happen to be following. This further soldifies their faith that this must be the one true way because they've personally witnessed over whelming proof that this is so. Any further chances of a discussion about the secular, universal nature of the experience is lost forever. So I know enough about Christianity to make up my own mind about it. A belief in God, or a creator, is completely superflous to where I'm at already. There are many religions on this planet that might have some useful teachings. But we can't study them all. I suspect that Jainism would be beneficial to study, but when was the last time you got involved? : ) Peace Mike ________________________________ From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 5:07 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen you sound like you hate christians..why?..had a bad experience?..merle Bill!, Then that doesn't make the Bible any truer, or better, than reflecting on a book on Aesop's Fables (Aesop's Fables seems a damn sight better source for morals than the Bible tho). Mike ________________________________ From: Bill! <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:34 Subject: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen Mike, No, these kinds of intellectualizations don't make these stories 'true' and more than a koan is 'true'. They can though be helpful as long as you don't attach to them. Then they are the finger you become fixated on. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > That's an interesting idea. It sounds like something Joesph Campbell would > say. Maybe our splitting from God represents the beginning of dualism and the > desire for the search back to the One again? Interesting. Just as I'm sure > people were awakened to Buddha Nature before Guatama, so to many of the > stories in the Bible predate the first writing of the first scrolls. The > Flood springs to mind. Still doesn't make the stories true tho. > > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, 4 August 2012, 2:01 > Subject: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > >  > Mike, > > I believe the story in the Bible of the 'Garden of Eden' is a mythologized > description of what mankind's life was like before he became too dependent > upon and attached to his rational mind (dualism - Knowledge of Good and > Evil). Before that he lived at one with God - in the Garden of Eden. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Merle, > > > > It's a nice sentiment to try to do that, isn't it? I guess the problem is > > is that we collect too much dust in our eyes as we acquire more of what the > > world teaches us. I do have a vague memory/feeling tho, of playing in > > my parent's garden and it being what the Garden of Eden must be like. I > > would've been less surprised to come across the Cheshire Cat than I would > > if I'd come across the tabby next door. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>To: "[email protected]" > > <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 8:56 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > > > > >  > > > > > >  look at life through the eyes of a young child... fresh, always alert > > and forever curious..merle > > > > > >  > > Chris, > > > > >So I guess my question is that having now had a great deal more chance > > to see from the non-dual perspective, do you find that the initial > > experience you wrote about was really basically ordinary, but so far our of > > your thinking that you were surprised at its nature?  Or do you find it > > leaves you feeling there is some progression to your practice and > > liberation, and your ordinary experience before that seeing is not like > > your ordinary experience now? < > > > > Thanks for reading and asking questions. All I can say about it is that the > > objects we normally take for granted were seen as they really are because > > the web of concepts we usually overlay them with was removed. They just > > were. It struck me at the time (during the episode) that seeing this way > > was the most natural and real way of seeing, except not seeing with the > > eyes, and that it was all so obvious. It was more like the objects were and > > I wasn't (Which is why Dogen's '10,000 things' resonates). I have to say > > that my ordinary experience is not like it was before, but neither is it > > like it was during the experience, which is why I do feel there is some > > progression to my practice and liberation. It's not for the purpose of > > recapturing a past experience (like a drug high), but to get to the bottom > > of what it's all about. In a way, I've answered 'yes' to both your > > questions, but contradictions seem okay now, too. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 4:15 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen > > > > > >  > > This thread has been very interesting, but I have a question for Mike. > >  I am honored that you shared your experience with us, and I hope I can > > address a question without antagonizing you - it's a real question I have, > > and I am perfectly willing to hear any honest answer.  > > > > As far as I can tell, every time one slows down the rush of thinking a bit, > > out pops such a lovely universe as these dramatic experiences seem to > > highlight.  But, other than the strong emotions, I don't read anything > > in these mystical experiences that isn't there each moment, in the quiet > > still space that attending lets us notice.    After each > > exhalation, perfect stillness, balanced on the burning tip of creation. > >  Something like that.  > > > > I've not had an enlightenment experience as a part of zen training*, but > > they don't read as different from my frequent realizing I'm lost in day > > dreams and returning to attentive zazen - tho that realization is rather > > dull, it has the full sense of okness and the noticeable lack of distinct > > boundaries.  When I stop crinkling up my mind, and attend to what Bill! > > calls raw sensory input, living is awfully pretty and crystalline and > > wonderful; even in the middle of an argument with my wife or kids, here we > > are; how can I not smile a bit (unless it would upset the companions)? > >  I have a fairly pleasant and orderly life, to be sure, but even > > crashing on my bike is interesting.  That slight shift in perspective > > happens many times a day, but each time I let go (of *my* thoughts, *my* > > preferences, *my* expectations), my ass unclenches and I find that the > > moment is indeed complete and sufficient.  > > > > So I guess my question is that having now had a great deal more chance to > > see from the non-dual perspective, do you find that the initial experience > > you wrote about was really basically ordinary, but so far our of your > > thinking that you were surprised at its nature?  Or do you find it > > leaves you feeling there is some progression to your practice and > > liberation, and your ordinary experience before that seeing is not like > > your ordinary experience now? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > --Chris > > chris@ > > +1-301-270-6524 > > > > *I had a couple of "it's ok, all is one" experiences as a child, and > > occasionally as a parent (being a parent seems to for me to bring out all > > sorts of states of love and wonder, due I guess to the physical exhaustion, > > total dedication, and lack of personal wilfulness), that seem sort of like > > what people describe, tho of course it had nothing to do with zen training > > as I only started that a few years ago.  > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Joe <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > Ed, > > > > > >Hugh bet that zen teachers use the word "samadhi'.  Not many talk > > >about it.  Except in dokusan.  It's not a secret, but maybe since > > >about half the folks on sesshin are pretty new, teachers do not make > > >a big deal about it in public, while the old-timers of course are > > >just bathed in it, to their eyebrows.  Or we can hope, so. > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > >"ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > >> > > >> Mike, > > >> > > >> Samadhi has numerous meanings.  What do you mean by 'samadhi'? > > >>  Joe, > > >> what do you mean by 'samadhi' ?   Do Zen masters ever use the term > > >> 'samadhi'? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > >reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
