I understand what you are saying here, that our perception of reality is a logical outgrowth of our preconceptions, our starting places. I balk at labeling it delusional. There are many paths to the same place. We can start with logic and say that 1+1=2 but is that true in all cases? That 2 points in space define a straight line but is that always the case? Is it delusional to believe that? Bill
Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! ________________________________ From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, September 2, 2012 7:25:59 AM Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" Mike, Excellent question. I'll paraphrase it as 'how can delusional beliefs (illogical beliefs) be part of reality if reality (the world of forms) which includes everything is a logical structure'? The short answer is that illogical beliefs must be taken in their greater context in which they become logical. For example if someone was raised in a fundamentalist Christian upbringing it is LOGICAL they will grow up with delusional beliefs. Those beliefs are the LOGICAL outcome of that upbringing... Same with Australian aborigines raised in their culture. BTW I wasn't critical of people raised in delusion. Everyone is to some extent. I was critical of the delusions in question. But realization requires correcting delusion. Only when delusion is corrected can realization take place... To answer your last question. Chi is simply the internal feeling of the life force that everyone has. It IS direct experience of one's own being and one's relationship to the rest of reality. It's existence is self evident and with us directly experienced every moment of our lives. As to spirit, depends on how you define it.... Different people define it different ways, some supernaturally, some as an equivalent term for Buddha Nature = Tao = ontological energy.... Edgar On Sep 2, 2012, at 8:11 AM, mike brown wrote: > > >Edgar, > > >Don't you contradict yourself here somewhat? You were previously critical of >people from cultures where they may have a belief in dragons or rainbow >serpents >etc. Aren't these beliefs part of the Truth (Buddha Nature) as well then? >Especially when they haven't had, or even when they have had, contact with >contemporary science. If you believe in 'chi' energy, what's the difference in >believing in 'spirit'? > > >Mike > > > ________________________________ From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 13:00 >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" > > > >Bill! > > >And that my friend is precisely the problem. Logic, like everything else that >exists IS Buddha Nature. Because there is nothing that is NOT Buddha nature... > > >I think we've honed into the absolute kernel and crux of the disagreement >right >here ... > > >See what I'm saying? > > >You adopt a dualistic view by denying part of what exists is part of Buddha >Nature. >I point out there is no such dualism because everything that exists is part of >reality (Buddha Nature) by definition, including things such as logic and your >daily life using logic making a living, that you deny is part of Buddha >Nature. > > > > >This is the MOST IMPORTANT post of mine to Bill! ever! I only hope this will >be >a super Kwatz moment and that Bill! won't try to avoid and ignore the koan as >usual.... > > >Edgar > > > > > > > > >On Sep 2, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >>Edgar, >> >>Sometimes I think you don't read my posts. >> >>I NEVER said I don't use logic. I use it all the time. I make my living using >>it. I don't however mistake logic for Buddha Nature. >> >>...Bill! >> >>--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>> >>> Bill!, >>> >>> Proving Bill! still uses his considerable intelligence to negotiate the >>>rational world of forms contrary to what he claims and would have us believe >>>.... >>> :-) >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 2, 2012, at 4:46 AM, Bill! wrote: >>> >>> > Bill, >>> > >>> > I've had a lot of practice trying to follow Edgar's posts. I'm sure >>> > you'll >>>get the hang of it sooner or later. >>> > >>> > ...Bill! >>> > >>> > --- In [email protected], William Rintala <brintala@> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Thank you for that Edgar. I can follow your emails better if you give >>> > > them >>>to >>> >>> > > me a teaspoon at a time, unlike Bill! who seems to follow what you say >>> > > with >>> >>> > > ease. >>> > > >>> > >  Bill not Bill! >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ________________________________ >>> > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 6:36:59 AM >>> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" >>> > > >>> > >  >>> > > Joe and Merle, >>> > > >>> > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which you >>>imagine you >>> >>> > > are incomplete.... >>> > > >>> > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential aspect >>> > > of >>> > > realization... >>> > > >>> > > Wham! >>> > > >>> > > Edgar >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Aug 30, 2012, at 11:51 PM, Joe wrote: >>> > > >>> > >  >>> > > >Hiya, Merle, >>> > > > >>> > > >Nonetheless, practice formally if you are able. >>> > > > >>> > > >If you are not able, then find some way to do it. ;-) >>> > > > >>> > > >It's as important as that. Life is a little bit short, nowadays. >>> > > > >>> > > >If you report-back that it is all B.S., then we'll understand that it >>> > > >is >>>so, for >>> >>> > > >you... once you have given it your ALL, with a good teacher, and sangha. >>> > > > >>> > > >But I think you'll have a more positive experience, and report. >>> > > > >>> > > >In fact, I worry that you may develop attachments, especially in the >>>realm, or >>> >>> > > >area, of the Optical-sense. But when I see the paintings that >>> > > >afterwards >>>result, >>> >>> > > >coming from your studio, THAT will assuage my concerns, probably, and >>> > > >bath >>>me in >>> >>> > > >balm, I am sure. And this is what I look forward to. >>> > > > >>> > > >Yet, it's not selfishness, on my part. >>> > > > >>> > > >And, I am not attached to the possibility. But I have hopes that >>> > > >EVERYONE >>>who >>> >>> > > >wishes to practice under the best conditions may have their wish, and >>> > > >will >>> >>> > > >awaken. Not just because I have done it, and have had the wonder and >>>miracle of >>> >>> > > >this chance a number of times, as many of us have, in company with so >>> > > >many >>> >>> > > >others throughout History, and among our intimate acquaintances: but, >>>because so >>> >>> > > >many others have *not*. >>> > > > >>> > > >I know what I'm wishing you, and others, I mean. >>> > > > >>> > > >Otherwise... may the veiled-life suffice! One can't disparage where we >>>are. One >>> >>> > > >can only either realize, or not realize. Realize means realizing where >>> > > >we >>>are >>> >>> > > >already, but being the most clear about it. That's not a movement to >>>somewhere >>> >>> > > >else, but it is a very, very big step, as momentous as the late Neil >>> > > >Armstrong's. Will you trust me, about this, in this? >>> > > > >>> > > >I was 17 when he and Buzz landed, and walked, and Mike Collins >>> > > >orbited, >>> > > >station-keeping for them. Life was different after that. I could write >>>volumes >>> >>> > > >about how. >>> > > > >>> > > >Maybe I'm a relic. Maybe, someday, to be appreciated. ;-) >>> > > > >>> > > >--Joe >>> > > > >>> > > >> Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>> > > >> >>> > > >> ..am i on track.????? >>> > > >> >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> > > > > >
