Edgar,

PLEASE READ THIS POST CAREFULLY!!!

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Logic can certainly be part of Zen Buddhism or just plain old zen.  Logic 
however is fundamentally illusory and is not a manifestation of Buddha Nature.  
Buddha Nature is the direct experience of reality and nothing more. 

LOGIC IS NOT ZEN - ACCUSATION
First of all to my recollection I did not say 'logic is not zen'.  That's very 
clumsily worded and doesn't sound like something I'd write.  I searched back 
through my recent posts and did say in post #30276 "Illusions are not Buddha 
Nature".  Perhaps you interpreted and re-phrased that into 'logic is not zen'.

ZEN
As you know I use the term 'Zen' (upper-case 'z' - a proper noun) to refer to 
Zen Buddhism.  I use the term 'zen' (lower case 'z' - a common noun) to refer 
to zen sans Buddhism.  I was instructed in Zen Buddhism but now practice zen.

I also use either term, 'Zen' or 'zen' as a noun to classify a complete 
spectrum of activities which include teaching and learning processes, teaching 
techniques, practice techniques and actual practice (doing); and as an 
adjective to identify those that participate in these activities.

These techniques, especially in Zen Buddhism, can and do include logic and many 
other 'skillful means' which do employ illusory components.

BUDDHA NATURE
'Buddha Nature' is the term I use most frequently for the dropping of dualism 
allowing direct [sensory] experience [of reality].  The words in brackets are 
actually unnecessary but I've used them here to avoid confusion.  At other 
times I also use other terms that come from Zen literature and sometimes my own 
term 'Just THIS!'.

According to Siddhartha Buddha all sentient beings have Buddha Nature.  
(Nirvana Sutra)  Buddha Nature is ever-present but can be covered over 
(occluded) by illusions.  IMO the prime delusion is duality, and from that 
springs all other illusions including the most problematic: self.     It is the 
illusion of self that in the anchor for attachments which cause suffering.

LOGIC
Order, pattern, structure and cause-and-effect are among the illusions that 
have lead us to develop logic.  Logic is based on illusion and is itself an 
illusion.  Like a lot of other illusions logic may be very useful to employ in 
our daily lives and certainly is very comforting in that is gives us an 
illusion of order and control over our lives and reality.  It is however an 
illusion.

BILL!
I do practice my own style of zen.  I have gone through koan study and am able 
to sit 'shikantaza' (clear mind) by dropping all thought and intellectual 
activity.  I am usually able to generate, accommodate and even use illusions 
(such as logic) while still maintaining awareness of Buddha Nature, although 
sometimes the illusions do overwhelm me and occlude Buddha Nature; and still 
sometimes for attachments to these illusions although they are usually only 
temporary.  A good session of shikantaza is usually enough to 'wash my bowl' 
when those things do occur.  My practice now is bringing the manifestation of 
Buddha Nature up off the cushion and more fully into my everyday life and every 
thing I do.

CONCLUSION
Logic can be used as a part of Zen/zen learning and practice, but it is an 
illusion and is not Buddha Nature.    

...Bill!  

   



--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!,
> 
> Bill! claims logic is NOT Zen...
> 
> Bill! says he uses logic in his daily life...
> 
> Therefore Bill must believe he CANNOT have Zen in his daily life...
> 
> 
> This is a serious error...
> 
> Zen is 24/7 whether one is using logic or sitting mindlessly.
> 
> It is a fundamental error to believe only mindless sitting is Zen. That's 
> mistaking a particular meditative state for Zen.
> 
> There is no part of reality that is not Buddha Nature. Illusion is part of 
> reality and thus is a manifestation of Buddha Nature.
> 
> Realization is seeing the illusion that is part of reality as illusion rather 
> than the fake reality it pretends to be....
> 
> When Bill! understands that logic is part of reality and thus like everything 
> else is a form manifesting Buddha Nature rather than something contrary to 
> and apart from Buddha Nature, then and only then will Bill! allow himself to 
> completely realize Zen in his daily life as well as when he is sitting 
> mindlessly...
> 
> This is the crux of Bill!'s misunderstanding.... At the most fundamental 
> level he dualistically divides reality into illusion and Buddha nature 
> without realizing that even illusion is a manifestation of Buddha Nature 
> because there is nothing that is not Buddha Nature... The world of forms does 
> NOT stand apart from Buddha Nature. The world of forms is a direct 
> manifestation OF Buddha Nature.
> 
> Zen does not try to dismiss the world of forms; Zen is seeing the Buddha 
> Nature that is manifested in the world of forms... It is seeing the world of 
> forms AS Buddha Nature...
> 
> 
CLUSION> Only when this becomes clear can realization occur....
> 
> Edgar
>




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