Bill, I just used the word Mara because it was the subject of the thread. Illusion or Maya would do just as well in my context..
Edgar On Sep 13, 2012, at 12:11 AM, Bill! wrote: > Kris, Edgar and Mike, > > I disagree with most of what's said here but won't bore you with that again, > at least right now. I just want to get that on the record. > > You are using a term of which I was not familiar: 'Mara'. I first thought it > was 'Maya' and just spelled a little differently, but after researching this > online I found 'Mara' is different from 'Maya'. Both are classed as > 'illusions' (pardon the use of that term) but 'Mara' has a connotation of > being 'unwholesome'. Examples I saw were 'cravings', 'boredom' and 'passion'. > Whereas 'Maya' had no negative connotations. > > What is your understanding of and how are you using the term 'Mara' compared > with 'Maya'? > > Thanks...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Kristopher Grey <kris@...> wrote: > > > > Indeed, and well said. Many expressions here appear consistent (all, as > > aspects of this), though I suppose it is simply more engaging to point > > to those the the ones that appear otherwise! *L* > > > > KG > > > > > > On 9/12/2012 6:35 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > Mike and Kris, > > > > > > > > > This is consistent with what I say, that Mara (illusion or the world > > > of forms) is the WAY THAT BUDDHA NATURE MANIFESTS IN OUR WORLD. > > > Properly realized Mara is not something apart from Buddha Nature but a > > > manifestation of Buddha Nature. Mara is only illusion when taken for > > > the whole of reality rather than being realized as a manifestation of > > > Buddha Nature itself. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Kris, > > >> > > >> >What you seek to attend to, is none other than that attending. > > >> Abiding as whatever presents. > > >> > > >> I agree. This is just another way of saying that consciousness arises > > >> with whatever presents from moment to moment (conditioned). But it's > > >> how we react, or not, to these moments that is the crux of whether we > > >> suffer... or not. > > >> > > >> >There is no Buddha without Mara. > > >> > > >> Again, I agree. I think there's a very shallow belief in Buddhism, > > >> including zen, that when someone becomes 'enlightened' they will > > >> experience a life free of attachments, desires and craving. If > > >> conditions are right, we can experience moments of liberation, but we > > >> live in a contingent world and so always need to pay attention to > > >> each and every moment. > > >> > > >> >All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara. > > >> > > >> Nice. > > >> > > >> >The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be > > >> mindful you don't reject it. > > >> > > >> Well, you know what they say about keeping your friends close to you, > > >> but your enemies closer ; ) > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- > > >> *From:* Kristopher Grey <kris@... <mailto:kris@...>> > > >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > >> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2012, 2:55 > > >> *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA > > >> > > >> On 9/9/2012 3:34 PM, mike brown wrote: > > >>> Kris, > > >>> > > >>> >The nature of this realized, cessation is effortless. > > >>> > > >>> We're contingent beings in a contingent world. We're born, we grow > > >>> sick, we grow old, we die. In a contingent world we don't know > > >>> what's just around the corner ready to befall us. In order to > > >>> "realise" suffering fully we need to pay mindful attention to what > > >>> impacts on us - not to just the external stimuli, but also to how we > > >>> react to them inwardly. > > >> > > >> While all this is so, these are not separate. 'No independent > > >> origination". Contingent. What you seek to attend to, is none other > > >> than that attending. Abiding as whatever presents. > > >> > > >> Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take great effort > > >> to maintain (Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take > > >> great effort to maintain [Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not > > >> abiding take great effort to maintain.].)... > > >> > > >> If you realize at least 1/3 of that last bit - your mindfulness is > > >> sufficient. ;) > > >> > > >>> Even after Buddha's defeat of Mara, he was still 'visited' by Mara > > >>> from time to time. life happens moment to moment and no over-riding > > >>> state of mind/knowledge/understanding/Enlightenment will eradicate > > >>> the potential to suffer at any time. All we can do is constantly > > >>> practice mindfulness until our mind isn't so restless and we can be > > >>> more aware of those first stirrings of the mind to be so reactive. > > >> > > >> There is no Buddha without Mara. Neither victor nor vanquished was > > >> born to fight nor dies in the struggle. To conquer delusion is see it > > >> was never otherwise. Samsara is Nirvana. No other realization/no > > >> realization of other. > > >> > > >> All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara. > > >> > > >> The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be > > >> mindful you don't reject it. > > >> > > >> KG > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >
