Kris, Edgar and Mike, I disagree with most of what's said here but won't bore you with that again, at least right now. I just want to get that on the record.
You are using a term of which I was not familiar: 'Mara'. I first thought it was 'Maya' and just spelled a little differently, but after researching this online I found 'Mara' is different from 'Maya'. Both are classed as 'illusions' (pardon the use of that term) but 'Mara' has a connotation of being 'unwholesome'. Examples I saw were 'cravings', 'boredom' and 'passion'. Whereas 'Maya' had no negative connotations. What is your understanding of and how are you using the term 'Mara' compared with 'Maya'? Thanks...Bill! --- In [email protected], Kristopher Grey <kris@...> wrote: > > Indeed, and well said. Many expressions here appear consistent (all, as > aspects of this), though I suppose it is simply more engaging to point > to those the the ones that appear otherwise! *L* > > KG > > > On 9/12/2012 6:35 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > Mike and Kris, > > > > > > This is consistent with what I say, that Mara (illusion or the world > > of forms) is the WAY THAT BUDDHA NATURE MANIFESTS IN OUR WORLD. > > Properly realized Mara is not something apart from Buddha Nature but a > > manifestation of Buddha Nature. Mara is only illusion when taken for > > the whole of reality rather than being realized as a manifestation of > > Buddha Nature itself. > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > >> > >> Kris, > >> > >> >What you seek to attend to, is none other than that attending. > >> Abiding as whatever presents. > >> > >> I agree. This is just another way of saying that consciousness arises > >> with whatever presents from moment to moment (conditioned). But it's > >> how we react, or not, to these moments that is the crux of whether we > >> suffer... or not. > >> > >> >There is no Buddha without Mara. > >> > >> Again, I agree. I think there's a very shallow belief in Buddhism, > >> including zen, that when someone becomes 'enlightened' they will > >> experience a life free of attachments, desires and craving. If > >> conditions are right, we can experience moments of liberation, but we > >> live in a contingent world and so always need to pay attention to > >> each and every moment. > >> > >> >All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara. > >> > >> Nice. > >> > >> >The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be > >> mindful you don't reject it. > >> > >> Well, you know what they say about keeping your friends close to you, > >> but your enemies closer ; ) > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *From:* Kristopher Grey <kris@... <mailto:kris@...>> > >> *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2012, 2:55 > >> *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA > >> > >> On 9/9/2012 3:34 PM, mike brown wrote: > >>> Kris, > >>> > >>> >The nature of this realized, cessation is effortless. > >>> > >>> We're contingent beings in a contingent world. We're born, we grow > >>> sick, we grow old, we die. In a contingent world we don't know > >>> what's just around the corner ready to befall us. In order to > >>> "realise" suffering fully we need to pay mindful attention to what > >>> impacts on us - not to just the external stimuli, but also to how we > >>> react to them inwardly. > >> > >> While all this is so, these are not separate. 'No independent > >> origination". Contingent. What you seek to attend to, is none other > >> than that attending. Abiding as whatever presents. > >> > >> Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take great effort > >> to maintain (Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take > >> great effort to maintain [Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not > >> abiding take great effort to maintain.].)... > >> > >> If you realize at least 1/3 of that last bit - your mindfulness is > >> sufficient. ;) > >> > >>> Even after Buddha's defeat of Mara, he was still 'visited' by Mara > >>> from time to time. life happens moment to moment and no over-riding > >>> state of mind/knowledge/understanding/Enlightenment will eradicate > >>> the potential to suffer at any time. All we can do is constantly > >>> practice mindfulness until our mind isn't so restless and we can be > >>> more aware of those first stirrings of the mind to be so reactive. > >> > >> There is no Buddha without Mara. Neither victor nor vanquished was > >> born to fight nor dies in the struggle. To conquer delusion is see it > >> was never otherwise. Samsara is Nirvana. No other realization/no > >> realization of other. > >> > >> All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara. > >> > >> The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be > >> mindful you don't reject it. > >> > >> KG > >> > >> > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
