Kris, Edgar and Mike,
I disagree with most of what's said here but won't bore you with that
again, at least right now. I just want to get that on the record.
You are using a term of which I was not familiar: 'Mara'. I first
thought it was 'Maya' and just spelled a little differently, but after
researching this online I found 'Mara' is different from 'Maya'. Both
are classed as 'illusions' (pardon the use of that term) but 'Mara'
has a connotation of being 'unwholesome'. Examples I saw were
'cravings', 'boredom' and 'passion'. Whereas 'Maya' had no negative
connotations.
What is your understanding of and how are you using the term 'Mara'
compared with 'Maya'?
Thanks...Bill!
--- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
Kristopher Grey <kris@...> wrote:
>
> Indeed, and well said. Many expressions here appear consistent (all, as
> aspects of this), though I suppose it is simply more engaging to point
> to those the the ones that appear otherwise! *L*
>
> KG
>
>
> On 9/12/2012 6:35 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >
> > Mike and Kris,
> >
> >
> > This is consistent with what I say, that Mara (illusion or the world
> > of forms) is the WAY THAT BUDDHA NATURE MANIFESTS IN OUR WORLD.
> > Properly realized Mara is not something apart from Buddha Nature
but a
> > manifestation of Buddha Nature. Mara is only illusion when taken for
> > the whole of reality rather than being realized as a manifestation of
> > Buddha Nature itself.
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, mike brown wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Kris,
> >>
> >> >What you seek to attend to, is none other than that attending.
> >> Abiding as whatever presents.
> >>
> >> I agree. This is just another way of saying that consciousness
arises
> >> with whatever presents from moment to moment (conditioned). But it's
> >> how we react, or not, to these moments that is the crux of
whether we
> >> suffer... or not.
> >>
> >> >There is no Buddha without Mara.
> >>
> >> Again, I agree. I think there's a very shallow belief in Buddhism,
> >> including zen, that when someone becomes 'enlightened' they will
> >> experience a life free of attachments, desires and craving. If
> >> conditions are right, we can experience moments of liberation,
but we
> >> live in a contingent world and so always need to pay attention to
> >> each and every moment.
> >>
> >> >All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara.
> >>
> >> Nice.
> >>
> >> >The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be
> >> mindful you don't reject it.
> >>
> >> Well, you know what they say about keeping your friends close to
you,
> >> but your enemies closer ; )
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------
> >> *From:* Kristopher Grey <kris@... <mailto:kris@...>>
> >> *To:* [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>>
> >> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2012, 2:55
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA
> >>
> >> On 9/9/2012 3:34 PM, mike brown wrote:
> >>> Kris,
> >>>
> >>> >The nature of this realized, cessation is effortless.
> >>>
> >>> We're contingent beings in a contingent world. We're born, we grow
> >>> sick, we grow old, we die. In a contingent world we don't know
> >>> what's just around the corner ready to befall us. In order to
> >>> "realise" suffering fully we need to pay mindful attention to what
> >>> impacts on us - not to just the external stimuli, but also to
how we
> >>> react to them inwardly.
> >>
> >> While all this is so, these are not separate. 'No independent
> >> origination". Contingent. What you seek to attend to, is none other
> >> than that attending. Abiding as whatever presents.
> >>
> >> Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take great effort
> >> to maintain (Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take
> >> great effort to maintain [Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not
> >> abiding take great effort to maintain.].)...
> >>
> >> If you realize at least 1/3 of that last bit - your mindfulness is
> >> sufficient. ;)
> >>
> >>> Even after Buddha's defeat of Mara, he was still 'visited' by Mara
> >>> from time to time. life happens moment to moment and no over-riding
> >>> state of mind/knowledge/understanding/Enlightenment will eradicate
> >>> the potential to suffer at any time. All we can do is constantly
> >>> practice mindfulness until our mind isn't so restless and we can be
> >>> more aware of those first stirrings of the mind to be so reactive.
> >>
> >> There is no Buddha without Mara. Neither victor nor vanquished was
> >> born to fight nor dies in the struggle. To conquer delusion is
see it
> >> was never otherwise. Samsara is Nirvana. No other realization/no
> >> realization of other.
> >>
> >> All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara.
> >>
> >> The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be
> >> mindful you don't reject it.
> >>
> >> KG
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
