Joe, I hope you'll come to Western Australia one day. I know it won't disappoint. You could well be correct about finding similar, or better countries to observe the sky, but in all my travels I've never seen anything quite like sky when you're out deep bush. And that's not all. Aboriginal culture has existed for 40,000 years. When you're out bush you can almost hear the didgeridoo. As you know, the red of the Australian landscape is due to the iron ore that is so abundant here. Imagine the heat of the noon-day sun heating up the sand and the vibration that causes. Even the visible landscape vibrates. It's no coincidence the sound of the didgeridoo mimics this. Sensory overload! The continent is also so ancient that you can 'see' time (think the Dreamtime). Fascinating and spiritual place unfortunately lost on most Aussies.
Thank you for your forthrightness on Vipassana. I agree with you - i don't believe these practioners were Awakened, but were still using the technique of noting to gain an insight into the 3 Characteristics of impermanence, non-self and dukha. We shouldn't be too harsh on them tho (apart from the fact that we can't truly know a path from the observation of just 2 of its practitioners) because to the observer a person committed to noting would appear to be slow and methodical. It is only a technique towards Liberation, after all (the raft) and not the other shore (which in Zen terms is the same place, of course). ; ) Not sure I can agree about Vipassana's Metta practice and what you said about Zen's Compassion on Awakening tho (this is the area where I think they could come together instead of being passing ships in the night). Metta practice can be so intense that as an object of meditation it can take you into the first jhana. I know from personal experience that my Heart Chakra was blown wide open because of it. I think it'd be highly unlikely that a teacher of Vipassana would ever sanction war and violence the way the Zen hierarchy did in Japan during the Second World War. I truly believe the groundwork of Metta practice opens the heart more deeply than, say, the satori of a koan breakthrough. Yes, we can appreciate we all share the same Buddha Nature as a result (so what harms you harms me), but this can fade in time into more of an intellectual understanding. I just don't think it compares to a practice that consciously makes you gradually work up to loving a person you might strongly dislike. Thanks joe, I'm enjoying this thread! Mike PS You should have a chat with Subhana. I'm sure she'd do a better job of explaining all this than me! --- In [email protected], "Joe" wrote: > > Mike, > > If Australia had higher mountains than it does, then I might have visited > there by now, but I have not, because it does not. Alas! ;-) > > Its astronomical observatories are of course excellent, and famous, but I > have not had to travel as far as Australia to find similar ones or better > ones in Northern and Southern hemispheres. > > I regret this, because some of my teachers and mentors in Astronomy have > worked at Australian observatories, and I'd like to see the sights that they > saw and walk on the same rock. > > But the move in observational astronomy has been to go ever higher, and to > ever drier sites. Chile and Hawai'i are the outstanding sites on earth now. > > Nonetheless, Perth may draw me there eventually as a tourist: I too have > always felt drawn by it. > > On the topic of Zen and Vipassana practices, I also feel they can help > practitioners who are open to both teachings and both ways of practice. > > BTW, I think the practice of Metta is a beautiful and rational one, and I > also feel that Metta opens naturally to a Zen student when the student > awakens. Metta then for such a fortunate Zen student is not an intentional > practice, but a natural expression of our true nature and original human > inheritance, and arises at the same time with Wisdom. They are one, really: > there's no two ways about it! ;-) > > The Vipassana teachers of my acquaintance as participants on Ch'an retreat to > me seemed slow and dopey when it came to doing things off the cushion, such > as work, and the exercises we all practiced ritually. They frankly seemed > uncoordinated and awkward, always impeding their own path, and as if moving > through thick honey. They seemed unable to be direct and hence quick. This > made them appear to be unhealthy, sick, or else drugged, and definitely > unnatural. I think this may be due to some self-imposed or tradition-imposed > constancy of self-observation and unrelenting "noting", but I am not sure. > It certainly is not the state of Chan awakening, nor the expression or > indication that they are even carrying out fundamental Chan practices as > introduced and taught. At every move, they seemed to squelch the freedom > they might otherwise find or develop. It hurt my heart to find them in a > world of their own, through all the 7 or 8 days. > > Pardon me going further, but I think their Samadhi was not an empty one, > then, but suppose they were still doing things with "the mind" while all > attention should have been on the task at hand (well, "should have" from the > point of view of Zen teaching, on the Chan retreat we shared, Mike). > > I'll get off this Hobby Horse, now, but to sum up, as you know, I value most > the actuality of awakening, and one's awakening, and cannot *as* much value > the various states or stages of meditation, such as they are, and even as > enabling as they are. It's instead that "Zen awakening", or simply > "awakening" which seems to make all the difference. It's not an end or a > goal, but it enables true practice to begin, really just to begin, and > finally begin. > > It's the SUDDEN regaining of everything freshly once we lose everything > artificial, and it happens faster than an eye-blink, and lasts, we hope, a > long time. But as the expression goes, "Awaken in the morning, and die > happily in the evening". It's that good. ;-) And that much without > attachments. > > We need really good luck to awaken, though, and I think need to be really > exhausted, and definitely at wits-end, and sunken-down; even the bliss of > Samadhi covers it up, and samadhi must rip down its middle in a finger-snap, > or a balloon-pop, and we're then simultaneously startled at the cessation, > and look around suddenly, really free to move and free to do. I recommend to > everyone sticking with practice in order to experience this!, and to carry on > living this way. > > Yep!, I know that Subhana teaches both roads of Zen and Vipassana. > > --Joe > > > "mike" wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > Funny you should say that. When I first looked into migrating to Australia, > > back in '87, I was drawn to Perth even tho I knew nothing about it > > (especially in comparison to the more famous cities of Sydney and > > Melbourne). Turns out my instincts were correct - Perth is a wonderful > > place and Western Australia has a really strong Aboriginal culture, which I > > find fascinating. > > > > I think Zen and Vipassana could learn so much from each other, and I feel > > fortunate to be in a position in time and place to be exposed to both. I > > can honestly say I have no 'allegiance' to either. For me, Zen lacks the > > emphasis on Loving Kindness and compassion that Vipassana has (metta > > practice). I also think Zen doesn't put as much import on samadhi/the > > jhanas, which is a shame because they allow the practiser to experience a > > dimension of meditation that can't be comprehended without them. > > > > I agree with you that Zen does a lot more regarding taking it off the mat. > > Indeed, that's what I love about practicing Zen - to see the miraculous in > > the ordinary. > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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