Mike,
Further on your reply of the other day, yes, the two Vipassana practitioners I
worked with on intensive Chan retreat were just that, TWO people, two (quite)
slim examples.
But they were TEACHERS, Mike.
They were teachers THEN, and they are teachers NOW (in Massachussetts). My
point is that, if they are exemplary of a state of being which is considered a
model in Vipassana, then our ideals differ very much: theirs in Vipassana work,
and ours (I say...) in Ch'an, and Zen.
I was not privy to their interviews with Sheng Yen "in the room" (Dokusan;
which Sheng Yen simply called "Interview"), and thus I could only use my senses
of sight and sound, and human feeling to sense how "bound" and unnatural they
were. As I wrote, it hurt my heart.
If they were teachers, then they taught me to remain on the Chan and Zen path,
and to continue to value, propagate, and promulgate our sudden awakening and
its complete freedom, and restoration of all human faculties.
All my Chan and Zen teachers are dead now, and I feel no desire to become close
to any other one(s), and the less so with Vipassana teachers. I'll just leave
it at that in this post, and I shall just generously suppose that something
serious went wrong at and during or after the transmission to those Vipassana
teachers (whom I knew) from their original masters (if in fact that is the way
that teaching-authority is transferred in that South Indian tradition). Or
they were having a bad week, and got stuck somewhere: maybe that happens even
to teachers. ;-)
I *do* still maintain that Zen awakening opens for the lucky practitioner and
his/her associates the full scope of human possibility of participation in and
delivery of loving kindness. It is not just Metta, it is Karuna, or, in fact,
Mahakaruna, great compassion, a part of our nature, along with Prajna. How
could it not? It goes with the territory (our original inheritance). Anything
that is not Maha-Karuna is artificial, and of course would have fallen away at
awakening along with all other acquirements.
This is not "Fundamentalism" talking! ;-)
But I can't speak from experience of Vipassana practice myself, only Zen.
I ask you please to awaken in the Zen sect, and then tell us in writing or in
person or via Skype calls how the great cessation and freedom regained in Zen
awakening may compare with what is the hoped-for end-state or equilibrium state
which is valued in Vipassana lines. A serious request!, and the only way to
gain real clarity and helpful guidance for others about our topic.
Despite it all, though, and notwithstanding fine reports, I know that some
folks will go one way, and others another. Proofs and demonstrations and
testimonials exert very little persuasive force, to change conviction or
commitment, if a person feels a connection with a teacher or a tradition or a
practice. They're going to do what they're going to do, unless they experience
disappointment or disaster themselves, and then they'll do something else.
There's no way to talk anyone into anything, thank goodness!
But I wish you and everyone strong practice.
--Joe
> "mike" wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> I hope you'll come to Western Australia one day. I know it won't disappoint.
> You could well be correct about finding similar, or better countries to
> observe the sky, but in all my travels I've never seen anything quite like
> sky when you're out deep bush. And that's not all. Aboriginal culture has
> existed for 40,000 years. When you're out bush you can almost hear the
> didgeridoo. As you know, the red of the Australian landscape is due to the
> iron ore that is so abundant here. Imagine the heat of the noon-day sun
> heating up the sand and the vibration that causes. Even the visible landscape
> vibrates. It's no coincidence the sound of the didgeridoo mimics this.
> Sensory overload! The continent is also so ancient that you can 'see' time
> (think the Dreamtime). Fascinating and spiritual place unfortunately lost on
> most Aussies.
>
> Thank you for your forthrightness on Vipassana. I agree with you - i don't
> believe these practioners were Awakened, but were still using the technique
> of noting to gain an insight into the 3 Characteristics of impermanence,
> non-self and dukha. We shouldn't be too harsh on them tho (apart from the
> fact that we can't truly know a path from the observation of just 2 of its
> practitioners) because to the observer a person committed to noting would
> appear to be slow and methodical. It is only a technique towards Liberation,
> after all (the raft) and not the other shore (which in Zen terms is the same
> place, of course). ; )
>
> Not sure I can agree about Vipassana's Metta practice and what you said about
> Zen's Compassion on Awakening tho (this is the area where I think they could
> come together instead of being passing ships in the night). Metta practice
> can be so intense that as an object of meditation it can take you into the
> first jhana. I know from personal experience that my Heart Chakra was blown
> wide open because of it. I think it'd be highly unlikely that a teacher of
> Vipassana would ever sanction war and violence the way the Zen hierarchy did
> in Japan during the Second World War. I truly believe the groundwork of Metta
> practice opens the heart more deeply than, say, the satori of a koan
> breakthrough. Yes, we can appreciate we all share the same Buddha Nature as a
> result (so what harms you harms me), but this can fade in time into more of
> an intellectual understanding. I just don't think it compares to a practice
> that consciously makes you gradually work up to loving a person you might
> strongly dislike.
>
> Thanks joe, I'm enjoying this thread!
>
> Mike
>
> PS You should have a chat with Subhana. I'm sure she'd do a better job of
> explaining all this than me!
------------------------------------
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
