Joe, The end-state of Vipassana is the two sides of the same of Happiness in the present moment and the cessation of suffering. Who are we to judge whether another is in that state of being, or not? Likewise, I would say that a Zen practitioner deeply committed to working on a koan would appear to others as being somewhat detached and not fully engaged with what presents. And again, if Zen awakening is enough for Prajna and Mahakaruna to instantly bloom into Great Compassion, then where was this evident amongst the Zen clergy during both the occupation of China and the Second World War? Can we judge the efficacy of a path by the actions of a few?
Mike --- In [email protected], "Joe" wrote: > > Mike, > > Further on your reply of the other day, yes, the two Vipassana practitioners > I worked with on intensive Chan retreat were just that, TWO people, two > (quite) slim examples. > > But they were TEACHERS, Mike. > > They were teachers THEN, and they are teachers NOW (in Massachussetts). My > point is that, if they are exemplary of a state of being which is considered > a model in Vipassana, then our ideals differ very much: theirs in Vipassana > work, and ours (I say...) in Ch'an, and Zen. > > I was not privy to their interviews with Sheng Yen "in the room" (Dokusan; > which Sheng Yen simply called "Interview"), and thus I could only use my > senses of sight and sound, and human feeling to sense how "bound" and > unnatural they were. As I wrote, it hurt my heart. > > If they were teachers, then they taught me to remain on the Chan and Zen > path, and to continue to value, propagate, and promulgate our sudden > awakening and its complete freedom, and restoration of all human faculties. > > All my Chan and Zen teachers are dead now, and I feel no desire to become > close to any other one(s), and the less so with Vipassana teachers. I'll > just leave it at that in this post, and I shall just generously suppose that > something serious went wrong at and during or after the transmission to those > Vipassana teachers (whom I knew) from their original masters (if in fact that > is the way that teaching-authority is transferred in that South Indian > tradition). Or they were having a bad week, and got stuck somewhere: maybe > that happens even to teachers. ;-) > > I *do* still maintain that Zen awakening opens for the lucky practitioner and > his/her associates the full scope of human possibility of participation in > and delivery of loving kindness. It is not just Metta, it is Karuna, or, in > fact, Mahakaruna, great compassion, a part of our nature, along with Prajna. > How could it not? It goes with the territory (our original inheritance). > Anything that is not Maha-Karuna is artificial, and of course would have > fallen away at awakening along with all other acquirements. > > This is not "Fundamentalism" talking! ;-) > > But I can't speak from experience of Vipassana practice myself, only Zen. > > I ask you please to awaken in the Zen sect, and then tell us in writing or in > person or via Skype calls how the great cessation and freedom regained in Zen > awakening may compare with what is the hoped-for end-state or equilibrium > state which is valued in Vipassana lines. A serious request!, and the only > way to gain real clarity and helpful guidance for others about our topic. > > Despite it all, though, and notwithstanding fine reports, I know that some > folks will go one way, and others another. Proofs and demonstrations and > testimonials exert very little persuasive force, to change conviction or > commitment, if a person feels a connection with a teacher or a tradition or a > practice. They're going to do what they're going to do, unless they > experience disappointment or disaster themselves, and then they'll do > something else. > > There's no way to talk anyone into anything, thank goodness! > > But I wish you and everyone strong practice. > > --Joe > > > "mike" wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > I hope you'll come to Western Australia one day. I know it won't > > disappoint. You could well be correct about finding similar, or better > > countries to observe the sky, but in all my travels I've never seen > > anything quite like sky when you're out deep bush. And that's not all. > > Aboriginal culture has existed for 40,000 years. When you're out bush you > > can almost hear the didgeridoo. As you know, the red of the Australian > > landscape is due to the iron ore that is so abundant here. Imagine the heat > > of the noon-day sun heating up the sand and the vibration that causes. Even > > the visible landscape vibrates. It's no coincidence the sound of the > > didgeridoo mimics this. Sensory overload! The continent is also so ancient > > that you can 'see' time (think the Dreamtime). Fascinating and spiritual > > place unfortunately lost on most Aussies. > > > > Thank you for your forthrightness on Vipassana. I agree with you - i don't > > believe these practioners were Awakened, but were still using the technique > > of noting to gain an insight into the 3 Characteristics of impermanence, > > non-self and dukha. We shouldn't be too harsh on them tho (apart from the > > fact that we can't truly know a path from the observation of just 2 of its > > practitioners) because to the observer a person committed to noting would > > appear to be slow and methodical. It is only a technique towards > > Liberation, after all (the raft) and not the other shore (which in Zen > > terms is the same place, of course). ; ) > > > > Not sure I can agree about Vipassana's Metta practice and what you said > > about Zen's Compassion on Awakening tho (this is the area where I think > > they could come together instead of being passing ships in the night). > > Metta practice can be so intense that as an object of meditation it can > > take you into the first jhana. I know from personal experience that my > > Heart Chakra was blown wide open because of it. I think it'd be highly > > unlikely that a teacher of Vipassana would ever sanction war and violence > > the way the Zen hierarchy did in Japan during the Second World War. I truly > > believe the groundwork of Metta practice opens the heart more deeply than, > > say, the satori of a koan breakthrough. Yes, we can appreciate we all share > > the same Buddha Nature as a result (so what harms you harms me), but this > > can fade in time into more of an intellectual understanding. I just don't > > think it compares to a practice that consciously makes you gradually work > > up to loving a person you might strongly dislike. > > > > Thanks joe, I'm enjoying this thread! > > > > Mike > > > > PS You should have a chat with Subhana. I'm sure she'd do a better job of > > explaining all this than me! > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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