Mike,
No, no! On just one point.
Bill! I think accurately points out that IF a mystical experience (that's
redundant... ) is claimed to have happened to have been a "union WITH THE
OTHER"... even though resulting in a UNION... there is dualism somewhere. He's
right that there WAS, before the union. But, upon union, what is there?
I won't try to say. But it can't be dual, except in speaking about the parties
before the merger. Unless it's a Human marriage.
(no, I don't mean the Bachelor Party, and the Bridal Shower).
But Bill! shows that the DNA of his own understanding of the word Mysticism --
like the "understanding" of the lexicographers -- is conditioned SOLELY by the
imagery and models of traditions like the Judeo-Christian-Muslim one, a
tradition of The Book, each of which posits a God.
The dictionary 2nd-definition concerns "subjective communion". That image or
report falls right in line with what we would expect from a dualist tradition
of "I - Thou". God and me. And so it fits those traditions, because it came
directly from expressions of practitioners of them.
A Christian Contemplative, let's say, experiences One Mind, Unity (not yet No
Mind), and uses the only language at hand to try to speak about it -- and maybe
also to satisfy his Spiritual Director -- and tells in Interview that he joined
God, or the Mind of God, and/or vice versa.
In a Buddhist person, that terminology is not familiar and would not come
naturally. So, the practitioner might speak in Interview (Dokusan, say...)
about feeling one, not with "GOD", but with everyone, and with the environment.
The teacher will say, "That is very good. ENJOY this feeling".
In the next interviews, the teacher will see if the student can be encouraged
to continue to practice, despite the Dharma-Joy that may be welling-up and
tickling the student. The teacher might give the student a new method of
practice, or else simple encouragement like, "Just keep empty".
Well, maybe afterwards, the condition of No Mind enventuates... .
There's then no communion with anything, there's just this experience of just
this, and it and everything else is entirely empty, and unmoving, and one is
utterly free, not bound or unified with anything whatsoever. The sky of
samadhi and the moonlight of wisdom continue to form the temple of our
practice, but it's all entirely natural, and not even ONE. And so it goes on,
say.
The experience of this is what a Buddhist *might* call mystical, and which I do
so call it. But it is a return to our true nature, and the experience of it
unremittingly. Let's read Professor Kim's section of the Introduction to see
just how he means "Mystical" Realist. It's a long time since I did.
Obviously he is not bringing God into the picture.
With good night wishes,
--Joe
> "mike" <uerusuboyo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Haha! Lucky I just put my own coffee down or I would've snorted it thru my
> nose!
>
> Bill!, if a mystical experience is dualist because it is subjective, then
> what of satori? Although body and mind had dropped, Dogen could still recall
> the experience to recount it. I've been fortunate to have had a mystical
> experience that was as 'mind blowing' as any account I've ever read and
> language is simply unable to deal with the contradiction of self dropping
> away, yet still being subjectively aware of the experience. I guess this is
> why 'ineffability' is considered one of the factors of a mystical experience
> (James inter alia).
>
> I still consider that Wunen's koan of the ox-tail not passing thru the window
> as addressing this point.
>
> Mike
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