Edgar, Just for the record I never said illusions are irrelevant. Being relevant is the core of their very nature...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Mike, > > Some good lessons for Bill who claims the causal world of forms is an > irrelevant illusion... > > Edgar > > > > On Mar 30, 2013, at 5:38 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > From: uerusuboyo@... <uerusuboyo@...>; > > To: BillSmart@... <BillSmart@...>; > > Subject: RE: [Zen] Cause-and-Effect > > Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 7:47:56 AM > > > > Bill!, > > > > Of course, the labels we use to name things/phenomena are meaningless by > > themselves, but they point to a truth. A relative truth (such as 'self'), > > but a truth none-the-less. To just say everything is "illusory" means very > > little and does even less as a teaching guide. This is what Buddha was > > getting at. He never denied a self as just being illusory - I'm very much > > real and so are the people I love - but he recognised that it is a self > > created by conditions (if there are no conditions, then how come you didn't > > wake up as a Chinese man this morning? How did you come to live in > > Thailand?) and that these conditions influence our thoughts/actions leading > > to further conditions etc etc. A simple contemplation of your life thus far > > would quickly bear witness to this Law. Oh, I forgot! "your" and "life" are > > concepts, and therefore illusory, so.... what was your point again? ; ) > > > > Mike > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>; > > To: <[email protected]>; > > Subject: [Zen] Cause-and-Effect > > Sent: Sat, Mar 30, 2013 6:58:10 AM > > > > > > Mike, > > > > Since this is such an important concept, to me anyway, I've embedded my > > responses in your post below: > > > > [Mike] Bill!, You old fox! I know where you're coming from, but don't jump > > too far ahead of yourself by being too quick to judge the relative from the > > standpoint of the absolute. The Dharma (as in the Law of nature) can be > > basically stripped down to cause and effect > > > > [Bill!] All concepts including Dharma, Law of Nature and Cause-and-Effect > > are products of our human intellect and are illusory. > > > > [Mike] Tell me one thing that isn't caused by a previous condition. > > > > [Bill!] Nothing is caused by a previous condition because there has been no > > other nor previous condition. The dualisitic terms 'other' and 'previous' > > are describing illusory qualities. > > > > [Mike] Remember that Buddha was pointing out that the (inner) world we > > create for ourselves is based on our thoughts and actions - which come from > > how we perceive phenomena. > > > > [Bill!] Agreed... > > > > Only when we manifest Buddha Nature does our equanimity extinguish cause > > and effect and hence karma. > > > > [Bill!] Agreed... > > > > But cause and effect in the world of the conditioned is very much a Law > > that explains our happiness or misery (and what to do about them). > > > > [Bill!] Agreed...as you say 'in the world of the conditioned' which I > > maintain is 'the world of forms' or 'the world of illusion'. > > > > We each create this world with our intellect. We create the forms with our > > human intellect, and that's no big deal as long as we don't forget that the > > forms are empty. It's when we create content for the forms (thoughts, > > judgement, classifications, associations, etc...) and we become attached to > > this illusory content we ourselves have created that we lose grounding in > > Buddha Nature. > > > > The concept of cause-and-effect an example of such human-created content > > and is illusory. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
