Merle, I would certainly say that to a blind person or a person in chronic pain. And write it down or sign it to a deaf person.
Why wouldn't I? They are all sentient. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  right bill.. >  dare you to say that to the blind, the deaf, and a burns victim etc... > >  there is a 6th sense and it relies on intuition! > > learn to harness this and you'll be streaks ahead.. > > merle..see no evil.. hear no evil... and ..? > > > >  > Merle, There is no 6th sense. In fact there are not even five. There is > only 1 and it is Buddha Nature. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > àbob..you forgot the 6th sense..merle > > > > > > à> > Bob, > > > > Thanks for your reply but it did not answer my question which was: > > > > "The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while > > remaining conscious?" > > > > Perhaps we're using the same words differently. Here is how I am using the > > word 'senses'. > > > > 'Senses' to me is an awkward, dualistically-based word used in part to > > describe just plain experience. (I sometimes use the phrase 'direct, > > sensory experience' just to be clear, but the qualifiers 'direct' and > > 'sensory' are redundant and might lead you to believe there is such a thing > > as 'indirect' or 'non-sensory' experiences. There are not.) The word > > 'sense' itself implies an 'avenue' or 'interface' which 'connects' us with > > the 'outside world'. We divide 'senses' up into five categories: sight, > > hearing, touch, smell and taste. But there is no 'outside world', no > > 'interface' and only one experience ('sense') - and I usually call that > > Buddha Nature or Just THIS!. > > > > If you're wondering why I'm trying to be very precise about this it's > > because sentient-ness (having senses) is very key to Buddha Nature - not > > rationality or logic or emotions or memory or projections or physicality or > > anything else. Just sentient-ness. > > > > The term 'perceptions' IMO are the concepts (illusions) created by our > > discriminating, rational mind (intellect) which post-processes experience > > with such rational actions as filtering, augmenting, categorizing, > > evaluating, etc... > > > > So maybe when you say "different levels of awareness of our senses" you are > > saying (in my terms) there is experience, and then there is a whole host of > > levels of perceptions. And maybe not... > > > > I have no idea what you think the story about the drawing has to do with > > your 'senses'. You recognizing a line drawing as "an orchid in all its > > glory" is a perception - not an (direct, sensory) experience. > > > > So, I repeat my question again in a little different way... > > > > When you say "The senses do need to be engaged but should work > > 'properly'...", what exactly to you mean by that? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > HI Bill thanks for the welcome. > > > > > > To answer your question I think there are different levels of awareness > > > of our senses. To remind the new meditators of their senses brings, what > > > is normally an autonomous process back into 'immediate reality' > > > (indicating a clearer idea of the senses rather than the reality of > > > reality - if you know what I mean). > > > > > > Many years ago a group of us did an experiment in focus and coming in > > > touch with the senses. We were given a large sheet of drwg paper and some > > > charcoal. We all had to draw a huge orchid in a brass pot. I am useless > > > at art and drawing match stick people is a stretch. Having meditated, > > > done a few straight lines and a few circles we started by concentrating > > > on a single point, drawing that and then moving on. After a short time I > > > stood back and was astounded that I had drawn an orchid in all its glory. > > > > > > I hope this answers your question. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > Welcome to the group.. > > > > > > > > I was also taught to relax my eyes so they are only 'half' open, lower > > > > my gaze to about 3 feet in front of me and allow my eyes to de-focus. > > > > Closed eyes were discouraged to help keep your mind from wandering, > > > > minimize visualizations and because as you note of the tendency to > > > > sleep. > > > > > > > > The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while > > > > remaining conscious? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > HI Joe - I agree. I was taught to squint through slightly open eyes > > > > > but not at first. The senses do need to be engaged but should work > > > > > 'properly' ie not allowing the ego to take control of them and run > > > > > with them. Easier said than done. The ego, as it throws up things, > > > > > always strike me like files with a 'look at this' on the front of > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > I take the guys through getting in contact with their senses prior to > > > > > starting meditation encompassing the idea of 'nowhere to go and > > > > > nothing to do'. I find that they can deal with the issues of > > > > > meditation easier with their eyes closed in the early stages. > > > > > Eventually a few things happen as they get stronger, sleep disappears > > > > > as an issue and they naturally sit more upright. Then open eyes are > > > > > easier. > > > > > > > > > > A start is a start it means nothing, it is where you end up that > > > > > counts. Entry is from anywhere. In Zen's case you end up not being > > > > > able to open your mouth to say anything sensible. Strange really! > > > > > > > > > > Nice talking to you. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting the "notes" to the Group site as a .doc file. > > > > > > Well done and generous teaching and encouragement. Gee, I wish I > > > > > > could sit with your group. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll note that, in general, in Zen practice as I've encountered it > > > > > > as taught and as practiced, we do not close the eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two reason for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > One is that we do not screen-out ANYTHING in our practice, as I've > > > > > > found it. All six senses are allowed to operate without screening. > > > > > > The "mind" is usually considered one of the six senses, so we do > > > > > > not suppress or screen out thoughts either: instead, we put all > > > > > > attention on the method of practice. If thoughts arise, we just do > > > > > > not follow them: that is not "screening", but it is just doing ONE > > > > > > thing at a time: remaining concentrated upon the method of practice > > > > > > in the time when we set ourself to practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > The second reason is that Zen practice is about opening to wisdom, > > > > > > through awakening. Closed eyes can lead to drowsiness and ... to > > > > > > sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, nothing new in these comments. And they are just that, > > > > > > comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > I like your noting the usefulness of the point of contact of the > > > > > > hands. I find in general that a closed mudra comes more naturally > > > > > > in our way of sitting, and does more good than an open mudra, a > > > > > > dispersing mudra, or no mudra. Hmm-m, I meant to write about this > > > > > > here last week, but the death of a very close sangha friend > > > > > > intervened and put me off doing much of anything: "Jim", a fellow > > > > > > who practiced his zazen with us always in a wheelchair. I'll get > > > > > > back to writing sometime. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again posting! > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also put statements and questions I prepare to them after the > > > > > > > group. I have attached a couple - (oops! attachments not so easy > > > > > > > will try another time). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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