William, You have quoted and appear to have understood me correctly.
I did just recently post a reply about the affects Alzheimer's (or dementia) might present vis-a-vis realizing Buddha Nature. If that was not clear please let me know and I'll try to explain it further. Oh yes, and this might be a good time to state everything I post is IMO...take it or leave it as you see fit. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], William Rintala <brintala@...> wrote: > > Pardon my insistence here. Bill's posts below he states that "An autistic > person can certainly realize Buddha Nature since that only requires > sentient-ness, not any intellectual quality" and I infer that the Rational > mind > is similarly a hinderence since he states that "'perceptions' IMO are the > concepts (illusions) created by our discriminating, rational mind (intellect) > which post-processes experience with such rational actions as filtering, > augmenting, categorizing, evaluating, etc..." . In my work I see many > people > with advanced dementia/Alzheimer's. These people are sentientand their > egos, > memories and intellect have all been stripped away. Have they realized > buddahood? If not then what else remains to hinder that from happening? Or > conversely what has been lost that prevents it? > > > > William, > > I don't know. But I'd say that they express it just the way they are, and > that > the Absolute expresses itself through that person. I don't mean to put it > this > way just as if these were mere "Truisms", though (although they can be taken > to > be). > > If we think about ourselves, it's just like that also. Except, differently > like > that. > > --Joe > > > > > ________________________________ > From: William Rintala <brintala@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, April 16, 2013 3:08:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: senses > >  > I've often wondered what people with Alzheimer's experience and how their > situation expresses Buddha Nature? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, April 16, 2013 5:01:32 AM > Subject: [Zen] Re: senses > >  > Merle, > > That's a VERY GOOD QUESTION! > > An autistic person can certainly realize Buddha Nature since that only > requires > sentient-ness, not any intellectual quality. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > àquestion:bob: so would an autistic person who is not perhaps engaging > > in all > >the senses.. > > but in many ways acts like a machine how does the mind figure in this > > equation > >you have set out here regarding senses and zen?à> > merle > > > > > > à> > > > > > àbob..you forgot the 6th sense..merle > > > > > > à> > Bob, > > > > Thanks for your reply but it did not answer my question which was: > > > > "The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while > > remaining > >conscious?" > > > > Perhaps we're using the same words differently. Here is how I am using the > > word > >'senses'. > > > > 'Senses' to me is an awkward, dualistically-based word used in part to > > describe > >just plain experience. (I sometimes use the phrase 'direct, sensory > >experience' > >just to be clear, but the qualifiers 'direct' and 'sensory' are redundant > >and > >might lead you to believe there is such a thing as 'indirect' or > >'non-sensory' > >experiences. There are not.) The word 'sense' itself implies an 'avenue' or > >'interface' which 'connects' us with the 'outside world'. We divide 'senses' > >up > >into five categories: sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste. But there is > >no > >'outside world', no 'interface' and only one experience ('sense') - and I > >usually call that Buddha Nature or Just THIS!. > > > > If you're wondering why I'm trying to be very precise about this it's > > because > >sentient-ness (having senses) is very key to Buddha Nature - not rationality > >or > >logic or emotions or memory or projections or physicality or anything else. > >Just > >sentient-ness. > > > > > > The term 'perceptions' IMO are the concepts (illusions) created by our > >discriminating, rational mind (intellect) which post-processes experience > >with > >such rational actions as filtering, augmenting, categorizing, evaluating, > >etc... > > > > So maybe when you say "different levels of awareness of our senses" you are > >saying (in my terms) there is experience, and then there is a whole host of > >levels of perceptions. And maybe not... > > > > I have no idea what you think the story about the drawing has to do with > > your > >'senses'. You recognizing a line drawing as "an orchid in all its glory" is > >a > >perception - not an (direct, sensory) experience. > > > > So, I repeat my question again in a little different way... > > > > When you say "The senses do need to be engaged but should work > > 'properly'...", > >what exactly to you mean by that? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > HI Bill thanks for the welcome. > > > > > > To answer your question I think there are different levels of awareness > > > of > >our senses. To remind the new meditators of their senses brings, what is > >normally an autonomous process back into 'immediate reality' (indicating a > >clearer idea of the senses rather than the reality of reality - if you know > >what > >I mean). > > > > > > Many years ago a group of us did an experiment in focus and coming in > > > touch > >with the senses. We were given a large sheet of drwg paper and some > >charcoal. We > >all had to draw a huge orchid in a brass pot. I am useless at art and > >drawing > >match stick people is a stretch. Having meditated, done a few straight lines > >and > >a few circles we started by concentrating on a single point, drawing that > >and > >then moving on. After a short time I stood back and was astounded that I had > >drawn an orchid in all its glory. > > > > > > I hope this answers your question. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > Welcome to the group.. > > > > > > > > I was also taught to relax my eyes so they are only 'half' open, lower > > > > my > >gaze to about 3 feet in front of me and allow my eyes to de-focus. Closed > >eyes > >were discouraged to help keep your mind from wandering, minimize > >visualizations > >and because as you note of the tendency to sleep. > > > > > > > > The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while > > > > remaining > >conscious? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > HI Joe - I agree. I was taught to squint through slightly open eyes > > > > > but > >not at first. The senses do need to be engaged but should work 'properly' ie > >not > >allowing the ego to take control of them and run with them. Easier said than > >done. The ego, as it throws up things, always strike me like files with a > >'look > >at this' on the front of them. > > > > > > > > > > I take the guys through getting in contact with their senses prior to > >starting meditation encompassing the idea of 'nowhere to go and nothing to > >do'. > >I find that they can deal with the issues of meditation easier with their > >eyes > >closed in the early stages. Eventually a few things happen as they get > >stronger, > >sleep disappears as an issue and they naturally sit more upright. Then open > >eyes > >are easier. > > > > > > > > > > A start is a start it means nothing, it is where you end up that > > > > > counts. > >Entry is from anywhere. In Zen's case you end up not being able to open your > >mouth to say anything sensible. Strange really! > > > > > > > > > > Nice talking to you. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting the "notes" to the Group site as a .doc file. > > > > > > Well > >done and generous teaching and encouragement. Gee, I wish I could sit with > >your > >group. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll note that, in general, in Zen practice as I've encountered it > > > > > > as > >taught and as practiced, we do not close the eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two reason for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > One is that we do not screen-out ANYTHING in our practice, as I've > >found it. All six senses are allowed to operate without screening. The > >"mind" is > >usually considered one of the six senses, so we do not suppress or screen > >out > >thoughts either: instead, we put all attention on the method of practice. If > >thoughts arise, we just do not follow them: that is not "screening", but it > >is > >just doing ONE thing at a time: remaining concentrated upon the method of > >practice in the time when we set ourself to practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > The second reason is that Zen practice is about opening to wisdom, > >through awakening. Closed eyes can lead to drowsiness and ... to sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, nothing new in these comments. And they are just that, > > > > > > comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > I like your noting the usefulness of the point of contact of the > > > > > > hands. > >I find in general that a closed mudra comes more naturally in our way of > >sitting, and does more good than an open mudra, a dispersing mudra, or no > >mudra. > >Hmm-m, I meant to write about this here last week, but the death of a very > >close > >sangha friend intervened and put me off doing much of anything: "Jim", a > >fellow > >who practiced his zazen with us always in a wheelchair. I'll get back to > >writing > >sometime. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again posting! > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also put statements and questions I prepare to them after the > >group. I have attached a couple - (oops! attachments not so easy will try > >another time). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
