Joe,

You avoid the koan! Unless the koan is engaged, progress is not possible...

Edgar



On Apr 18, 2013, at 5:26 PM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> If you work as Dogen did, and as his current disciples work, then all's right 
> with the world.
> 
> To be enlightened by all things is to have no models, no itinerary, and no 
> fixed ideas. Everything has fallen away. There is experience, is all.
> 
> If you were proposing add-ons, Edgar, then of course you were deviant. If you 
> were not proposing add-ons, then perhaps we misunderstood your proposals to 
> add-on.
> 
> Anyway, no need to go on further about it, because we are discussing Zen, and 
> Zen practice.
> 
> And William brought up Kant, and Kant's "Thing in itself". Who knows what 
> Kant had in mind, I'll say, just to be expedient. I don't think it's what 
> we're talking about, and it could be at cross-purposes to the program of Zen 
> practice, which, as Dogen described, is about not- thinking, and 
> non-thinking, and other words to that effect, which is a real effect, made 
> available through devoted zazen, and then an openness to all things. It makes 
> available a transformation which has little or nothing to do with zazen, and 
> is not a training-effect, and which has everything to do with all things.
> 
> But, we go in steps. Although ...Dogen, in his short life, served up the 
> whole shebang, because he taught from the perspective of enlightenment, not 
> from that of delusion, instigated and perpetuated by attachment. 
> 
> Dogen's way is pure and true, and that's why so many people cannot approach 
> it correctly, and usually get it wrong. A teacher of the proper temper is 
> almost always required to help any student in Dogen's way, or in any other 
> approach to Zen awakening through practice.
> 
> I assume we've all had teachers, or are going to have teachers.
> 
> Meanwhile, umpteen theories, miscues, and false-practices abound; Caution.
> 
> Strong practice!,
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
> >
> > Joe and William,
> > 
> > Dogen's "Being enlightened BY ALL THINGS" is exactly what I've been 
> > explaining here for years to the continued scoffs of Joe and Bill. 
> > 
> > Being enlightened by all things MEANS seeing the Buddha Nature in the world 
> > of forms. It accepts and embraces the world of forms. It doesn't try to 
> > escape from the world of forms as Bill and Joe claim we have to do...
> 
> 

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