Hi Joe agree with most you say. You state 'Some others who are not working in the Zen way think that we must first use everything, in order to awaken' - I have never heard of this.
Everything I have read says that you should just sit in zazen and let it take it's course, then awakenment will come ,either through grace or via an enlightened teacher capable or interested in pushing you over the edge (another model I guess). I wonder how many think that Samadhi is enlightenment? Bob BTW I replied to you via [email protected] but it did not show up in messages. Is there a way to reply to posts by replying to emails????? --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > Bob, > > Yes, it's true, isn't it. I agree that models form naturally in us, and are > useful. It's when we take them beyond their sphere of use, however, that we > are misled by them. And, in Zen practice, if we are attached to *any* model, > or to anything, we're not practicing, in that interval of time while we are > entertaining a model. I'm one who discourages myself, or others, from doing > anything other than practice when we set ourselves to practice. THAT in > itself, is practice. I don't think about practice when I practice, for > example. > > A model of how the senses work is useful to Medical people and to Poets, to > name a few. But the building of that model is based on observations made > with the senses. Why, I'd say that's as circular as an ellipse. So the > model is not only "just" a model, but it is subjective. There is no > "Outside"-Authority to confer a stamp of independence. We're stuck with > that. Or, we're only stuck with it, and stuck BY it when we forget that such > a model is formed by the same senses that we attempt to model. > > But when it comes to practice, the Zen way across all five living schools > seems to be to wake up, and then we can use everything freely. We can then > use things, our full Human inheritance, as skilful means to help others, > naturally. Some others who are not working in the Zen way think that we must > first use everything, in order to awaken. That's not what the Buddha did. > And I know no one who did that. Somebody might be able to be first, though! > > Once again, good to see you here. > > --Joe > > > "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > Hi Joe - you state "this is a model" and that is very true. There is > > nothing you can say about this internal state, and as soon as you open your > > mouth you are wrong. BUT..... you have to say something and a model, like a > > parable, is a good way to gain some level of understanding. The fact that > > certain synapses are sending signals is interesting, but from a scientific > > POV it will teach you nothing about who you are. > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
