William, I'm so very weary of continually having to contradict Edgar on this. I thought about just giving up and letting it slip through but as long as I'm co-moderator of this forum I just can't let statements like this be made without challenges. This is a zen forum and not a science forum.
I'm so weary though I'll just say what he's written below is half-right and half-wrong and that's always been Edgar's problem, and my problem in refuting him. I have to go through his posts line-by-line and sometimes word-by-word to show where he errs. So...for yet another time... [Edgar] Actually reality is nothing at all like the model of it our senses and mind constructs. Our 'senses' don't construct a model. This is experience. Experience is not illusory. Our mind post-processes our experience and constructs perception. Then our mind constructs models. Perceptions and these models are illusory. [Edgar] The world that we think we live in is entirely a construct of our individual brains with the exception of it's logical structure which the mind must approximate to a certain degree of accuracy for us to be able to function in reality... This sentence is actually not objectionable to me but I am sure I read it a lot differently than Edgar intends it to be read. The main point I must make is that all logical structure/rationality is the product of the mind and is therefore illusory. Reality has no logical structure. It is completely chaotic. [Edgar} Zen is understanding how this works so that one can realize the truth nature of things beyond the mind's model of them.... First of all zen has nothing to do with understanding but only has to do with experiencing. I would delete that part of this statement and change two words in the rest of the sentence so to read: ..so that one can EXPERIENCE the true nature of things WITHOUT the mind's model of them. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > William, > > Well to start with it's simply the way the senses and the brain work. > Actually reality is nothing at all like the model of it our senses and mind > constructs. > > The world that we think we live in is entirely a construct of our individual > brains with the exception of it's logical structure which the mind must > approximate to a certain degree of accuracy for us to be able to function in > reality... > > Zen is understanding how this works so that one can realize the truth nature > of things beyond the mind's model of them.... > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:38 PM, William Rintala wrote: > > > > > Is this illusion of the senses akin to Kant's Ding an sich? That we can > > never know the objects of our senses but only what our senses perceive. > > > > From: Joe <desert_woodworker@...> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thu, April 18, 2013 11:01:51 AM > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Hello > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > We observe how they work through the senses. Understanding them this way is > > perfectly circular. And that is our reality. So, I'd say, don't play it up > > as something special. We have what we have and make of it what we will. > > > > The understanding you build of things like this is a model. It is nothing > > better or closer to reality than that. It is a model. > > > > The view you express has a technical term, and it is not a put-down. It is > > an accurate and polite categorization: "Naive Realism". > > > > There you have it. Make of "IT" what you will, also. > > > > Many of us have been there, done that. Especially the Scientists among us. > > > > --Joe > > > > > Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > Of course you are right and Bill is wrong. The senses are illusions. They > > > are not reality as it actually is. This is abundantly clear to anyone who > > > understands how they work... > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
