Edgar, You are about one-quarter right here.
'Cupness' is a human mental concept. It 'exists' only in the mind (which means it's an illusion) and not in reality (I deleted the qualifier 'external'). Nothing exists in external reality because there is no external reality. All 'information forms' (I'd call them 'logical forms or models' and I'd also call them illusory) are created by the human mind and used to create perceptions. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > No, you don't understand. > > Cupness is a human mental concept. It exists only in mind and not in external > reality. > > What does exist in external reality are information forms that human minds > interpret as cups... > > Edgar > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 7:02 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > Everything (well most things) we write and post here is rational or at > > least presented in a rational way. Our language for the most part is > > rational. > > > > You would not have written this because of the one word I pointed out: > > "impute". You would have used a word like 'discovered' or 'recognized' and > > implied that 'cupness' exists out there somewhere in the World of Forms. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > My God! If I had written this everyone (including YOU) would be pounding > > > me for being too rational! > > > :-) > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 2013, at 12:25 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > I copied this for you. It's regarding things having "essence": > > > > > > > > What is emptiness then? To understand the philosophical meaning of this > > > > term, let's look at a simple solid object, such as a cup. How is a cup > > > > empty? We usually say that a cup is empty if it does not contain any > > > > liquid or solid. This is the ordinary meaning of emptiness. But, is the > > > > cup really empty? A cup empty of liquids or solids is still full of > > > > air. To be precise, we must therefore state what the cup is empty of. > > > > Can a cup be empty of all substance? A cup in a vacuum does not contain > > > > any air, but it still contains space, light, radiation, as well as its > > > > own substance. Hence, from a physical point of view, the cup is always > > > > full of something. Yet, from the Buddhist point of view, the cup is > > > > always empty. The Buddhist understanding of emptiness is different from > > > > the physical meaning. The cup being empty means that it is devoid of > > > > inherent existence. > > > > > > > > What is meant with non-inherent existence? Is this to say that the cup > > > > does not ultimately exist? - Not quite. - The cup exists, but like > > > > everything in this world, its existence depends on other phenomena. > > > > There is nothing in a cup that is inherent to that specific cup or to > > > > cups in general. Properties such as being hollow, spherical, > > > > cylindrical, or leak-proof are not intrinsic to cups. Other objects > > > > which are not cups have similar properties, as for example vases and > > > > glasses. The cup's properties and components are neither cups > > > > themselves nor do they imply cupness on their own. The material is not > > > > the cup. The shape is not the cup. The function is not the cup. Only > > > > all these aspects together make up the cup. Hence, we can say that for > > > > an object to be a cup we require a collection of specific conditions to > > > > exist. It depends on the combination of function, use, shape, base > > > > material, and the cup's other aspects. Only if all these conditions > > > > exist simultaneously does the mind impute cupness to the object. If one > > > > condition ceases to exist, for instance, if the cup's shape is altered > > > > by breaking it, the cup forfeits some or all of its cupness, because > > > > the object's function, its shape, as well as the imputation of cupness > > > > through perception is disrupted. The cup's existence thus depends on > > > > external circumstances. Its physical essence remains elusive. > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>; > > > > To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > > > > Subject: [Zen] the strawberry myth > > > > Sent: Sat, May 18, 2013 3:46:59 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > group.... > > > > the thing about a strawberry .. > > > > a quality strawberry..it is suppose to be sweet... > > > > that is what we expect from a strawberry... > > > > the very essence of it is it's sweetness.. > > > > a sour one well apart from the fact it puts us off eating it and it is > > > > a product that will not sell well in the markets... > > > > get real.. > > > > would you want to eat sour strawberries for desert?.. > > > > for christ sake.. > > > > sour strawberries will put you off eating them for life... > > > > > > > > it's not all about judgement > > > > > > > > it's about accepting the reality that the sour strawberry does not > > > > contain the essence of what it is to be a strawberry.. > > > > > > > > that's not rocket science.. > > > > and requires no more that a nod and a shake of the head then spit it > > > > out.. > > > > end of story.. > > > > let's not read into this strawberry caper.. > > > > create a myth and make it something to be set in stone for ever more > > > > ... > > > > > > > > amen.. > > > > merle > > > > > > > > Merle > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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