Mike, Human altruistic behavior is just internalized programming and societal training. Same can be done to dogs to teach them not to bite or to assist blind people or sniff explosives. How much more altruistic can you get than spending your entire life assisting a blind person? Human altruism pales in comparison...
Therefore it's you that's wrong... Stop the specism for goodness sakes. Edgar On Jun 24, 2013, at 1:28 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Edgar, > > Wrong. People can, and do, take decisions to act altruistically even though > such an action is detrimental to themselves *and* their social group. You > seem stuck in some 1950's behavioural science model. I bet you still think > McDonalds serve their burgers on roller-skates! ; ) > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] rise above > Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 2:58:19 AM > > > Mike, > > > Wrong. Altruism is either programmed unconscious fear of consequences or it > is acting for the greater good when that greater good is perceived to be good > for the individual's survival... e.g. if the group survives and prospers the > member of the group will tend to survive and prosper also. > > This is what choice is. It's the same choice mechanism that motivates animal > actions as well. > > You can be trained to salivate like Pavlov's dog at the presence of a juicy > burger. In fact you probably already are! You and the dog are exactly the > same in this respect.... > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 23, 2013, at 10:03 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> When a person sacrifices themselves for another, even if no one else is >> aware of them doing so, they're not acting like the dog in Pavlov's >> experiment. A tiger can be *trained* not to eat the human, but usually by >> punitive methods against his will. This is what I mean by "transcend". >> Humans can act altruistically by choice - not just out of fear or reward. >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: Re: [Zen] rise above >> Sent: Mon, Jun 24, 2013 1:37:23 AM >> >> >> MIke, >> >> That we are able to "transcend base instincts" and animals aren't is an >> illusion. Animals very often alter their initial instinctual behavior in the >> presence of good reasons to do so. That's exactly the same mechanism that >> cause humans to alter their initial instinctual behaviors. >> >> The dog doesn't do 'bad' things it would instinctually want to do because of >> the disapproval of its master. Humans don't do instinctual things they might >> naturally do because of the consequences they anticipate. >> >> Exactly same mechanism that holds throughout the animal kingdom. All animals >> alter their instinctual behavior in the face of perceived negative >> consequences of it. Same mechanism humans follow... >> >> Edgar >> >> On Jun 23, 2013, at 8:02 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> > Merle,<br/><br/>> you seem to have it in for animals, insects >> > etc.<br/><br/>Don't put words into my mouth that were never >> > there!<br/><br/>I was careful to point out in my earlier post that we are >> > *not* superior to other animals, just unique in our ability to transcend >> > base instincts. Constantly giving me examples of the terrible things >> > humans do to each other, other animals and the environment does *not* >> > constitute an argument against this premise. Human beings have the sense >> > of sight. To keep bringing up examples of blind people you know doesn't >> > negate the first point.<br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail >> > for iPad >> >> > > >
