huh bill? if you are not attached to your car it cannot be driven to your destination so on that premises a car is real hence one's intellectualisations are real surely? merle
Merle, I believe someone is attached to their intellect when they believe their intellectualizations are real. I am using my intellect right now to write this sentence. You can use your intellect (or anything else, like your car) and not be attached to it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  bill...what makes you believe that others on this forum are attached to > their intellect?.. to construct this sentence you had to use your intellect > surely?..merle >  > Merle, > > I don't have any fear of my intellect. I use it much of the time. I am not > attached to my intellect. I know it produces delusions. These delusions > come and go like clouds in the sky. The clouds may partially cover the sun > sometimes, but I always no the sun is there and the clouds will pass. > > I do not fear clouds. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > >  bill...what fear do you have of the intellect?.. > > without the human brain and intellect yes based on logic > >  you would not be typing this message to edgar .. > > merle > > > > > >  > > Edgar, > > > > I'd agree with every word you say below if you would just erase the > > three-word phrase "the external reality" in the last sentence. > > > > Or if you want to keep the word count constant you could substitute the > > phrase "the intellectual delusion"... > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. > > > Would it work for you if I said that the world of forms is a > > > logico-mathematical computational system? Human math and logic are > > > approximations of that in human mental models of reality. They work > > > because they do, in the large part, accurately model the external reality > > > of the world of forms.... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:01 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math > > > > words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of > > > > reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the > > > > > actual logic of reality. > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the > > > > > > human intellect. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is > > > > > > > that it > > > > > > > shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. > > > > > > > Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity > > > > > > > is seen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > --Chris > > > > > > > 301-270-6524 > > > > > > > On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, <pandabananasock@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!: > > > > > > > > You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were > > > > > > > > looking for an > > > > > > > > impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads > > > > > > > > you back > > > > > > > > to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the > > > > > > > > model, then > > > > > > > > we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize > > > > > > > > that both > > > > > > > > are models of each other and the same, and experience > > > > > > > > encompasses all -- no > > > > > > > > need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and > > > > > > > > mountains > > > > > > > > again! > > > > > > > > ~PeeBeeEss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of > > > > > > > > Cause-and-Effect and > > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three > > > > > > > > Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is > > > > > > > > such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a > > > > > > > > moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of > > > > > > > > the act itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > > > > > > > > pandabananasock@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most people think of "1+1=2" as procedural, that is, > > > > > > > > that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes > > > > > > > > 2. They would regard "2=1+1" and "2=2" to be different > > > > > > > > equations, but they are not in the least bit > > > > > > > > different. The equal-sign is the present. > > > > > > > > > "1+1" is already 2! And the effect IS the > > > > > > > > cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something > > > > > > > > "bad" is you doing that "bad" thing. Your karmic > > > > > > > > reward for doing something "good" is you doing that "good" > > > > > > > > thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > > > > read or are > > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
