so what is american...?...merle
Chan is Chinese interpretation zen is Japanese. Tibean is Dali Lama? On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:30 AM, Merle Lester <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Bill...still confused...so zen is chan...?..if you wish to experience buddha >nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved... > so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has >nothing to do with buddhism?... merle > >Merle, > >Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. > >I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this >forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of >teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality >(a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into >every facet of your daily life. > >These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be >associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that >case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is >how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. > >To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist >teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. > >...Bill! > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >> >> >> >>  >>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have >> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle >>  >> Merle, >> >> Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. >> >> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, >> doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing >> directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on >> covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most >> other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a >> cult. >> >> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is >> a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case >> 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. >> >> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those >> that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to >> > as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle >> >  >> > Merle, >> > >> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist. >> > >> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I >> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. >> > What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those >> > delusions. >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are >> > > you?..merle >> > >  >> > > Merle, >> > > >> > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who >> > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same >> > > language as I do. Someone ELSE! >> > > >> > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not >> > > > you?...merle >> > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > Merle, >> > > > >> > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain >> > > > as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be >> > > > bad; and maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all >> > > > this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go >> > > > away!". >> > > > >> > > > ...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain >> > > > > bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > Merle, >> > > > > >> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below. >> > > > > >> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha >> > > > > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental >> > > > > delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The >> > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. >> > > > > >> > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > >> > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try >> > > > > > telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as >> > > > > > through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It >> > > > > > involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Merle, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as >> > > > > > > far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to >> > > > > > > afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of >> > > > > > > Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ...Bill! >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are >> > > > > > > > in cyber space.... although we need the body to get the >> > > > > > > > messages out there...mm that has me stumped! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > > state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath >> > > > > > > > counting saga? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > > i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation >> > > > > > > > whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an >> > > > > > > > almost non existent state >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on >> > > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind >> > > > > > > > of it's own so to speak? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in >> > > > > > > > the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own >> > > > > > > > thing regardless)... >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > > my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > > to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > > merle >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Merle >> > > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > -- Larry Maher
