i'm australian...estonian parents..came to sydney in 1949 as refugees..merle
I think we looking for an American buddhism. Want to be it? On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Merle Lester <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > so what is american...?...merle > > > >Chan is Chinese interpretation zen is Japanese. Tibean is Dali Lama? > > > >On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:30 AM, Merle Lester <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> >> >> Bill...still confused...so zen is chan...?..if you wish to experience >>buddha nature directly you do zen?... no buddhism involved... >> so why are you desiring to experience buddha nature and then claim it has >>nothing to do with buddhism?... merle >> >>Merle, >> >>Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'. >> >>I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this >>forum and elsewhere. A short version of that definition is: a set of >>teachings and techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality >>(a.k.a. Buddha Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into >>every facet of your daily life. >> >>These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be >>associated with Buddhism. If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that >>case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism. This is fact is >>how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism. >> >>To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist >>teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices. >> >>...Bill! >> >>--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>  >>>  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have >>> buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle >>>  >>> Merle, >>> >>> Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. >>> >>> Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, >>> doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have nothing >>> directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on >>> covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case of most >>> other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a >>> cult. >>> >>> This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is >>> a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an >>> upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. >>> >>> This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by >>> those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >  hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to >>> > as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle >>> >  >>> > Merle, >>> > >>> > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a >>> > Buddhist. >>> > >>> > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I >>> > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. >>> > What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those >>> > delusions. >>> > >>> > ...Bill! >>> > >>> > ...Bill! >>> > >>> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >  bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist >>> > > are you?..merle >>> > >  >>> > > Merle, >>> > > >>> > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone >>> > > who doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same >>> > > language as I do. Someone ELSE! >>> > > >>> > > ...Bill! >>> > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > ÃÆ'‚ bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not >>> > > > you?...merle >>> > > > ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > Merle, >>> > > > >>> > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain >>> > > > as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be >>> > > > bad; and maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer >>> > > > all this pain? What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go >>> > > > away!". >>> > > > >>> > > > ...Bill! >>> > > > >>> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ have you been in pain >>> > > > > bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > Merle, >>> > > > > >>> > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post >>> > > > > below. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha >>> > > > > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental >>> > > > > delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The >>> > > > > classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion. >>> > > > > >>> > > > > ...Bill! >>> > > > > >>> > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >>> > > > > wrote: >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try >>> > > > > > telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > Merle, >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as >>> > > > > > through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. >>> > > > > > It involves a disconnection with the illusion of self and all >>> > > > > > dualism. >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > ...Bill! >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > Merle, >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as >>> > > > > > > far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to >>> > > > > > > afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of >>> > > > > > > Buddha Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know >>> > > > > > > them. >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > ...Bill! >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >>> > > > > > > wrote: >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are >>> > > > > > > > in cyber space.... although we need the body to get the >>> > > > > > > > messages out there...mm that has me stumped! >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > > > state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath >>> > > > > > > > counting saga? >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > > > i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation >>> > > > > > > > whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an >>> > > > > > > > almost non existent state >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on >>> > > > > > > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind >>> > > > > > > > of it's own so to speak? >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in >>> > > > > > > > the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own >>> > > > > > > > thing regardless)... >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > > > my zen question is thus: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > > > to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint? >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > > > merle >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ>>> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > Merle >>> > > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >> >> >> >> > > >-- >Larry Maher > > -- Larry Maher
