Thank you for your response Alex. I appreciate the care you took in formulating your reply.
there were certain things that i couldn't appreciate - but i don't know how/what to ask about them, so i had to simply let them go. like the notion of 'eliminating boundaries as a way to free one from pain' - my (very conditioned) experience wants to map this onto something like 'eliminating cravings to free one from pain'. i don't mean to be simply parroting the buddhist texts, but i've come to feel the origins of pain to be defined in this way, & i'm having difficulty translating that into your experience/vocabulary... at the same time, i do recognize your point that i connect more strongly with the first half of that pair 'form is emptyness' has always felt more graspable for me (which i take pretty much from Thich Nhat Hanh's teaching) to mean that all those distinct 'forms' that we percieve do not exist seperately from each other - they are all interdependent (where i get the boundarylessness). and the second half 'emptyness is form' has always felt more elusive - but seems to me to be saying something like: out of the totality of 'what is' - which in some sense is a beginingless-endless infinite existance, there are localized 'eddies' of form - my own 5 aggregates being one example... --- In [email protected], Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So what is this 'emptines is form' telling us, in the > light of the 'form is emptiness, emptiness is form' > formulation? If form is emptiness, meaning it's not > really there, it's simply ascribed, imputed, imagined, i don't understand this - i'm not sure what you are saying isn't there? perhaps this is where you are saying that no real boundary exists between the individual 'objects'/'forms' in the world?? > then to say that emptiness is form must imply that > emptiness cannot possibly be mere blankness, mere > nothingness. Emptiness and form are closely tied, they i agree that emptiness is not 'blankness/nothingness' - i think this particular word must not translate well. i take it to mean that there is no "particular/seperate/independent form" within (distinct from) all the vastness of existence. > > However, if one were to embark upon some highly > sophisticated spiritual path, then given certain > favorable circumstances resulting from the carefully > honed practice, it may be possible to experience that > form and emptiness coincide. This overlap would be > mysterious and inexplicable, but would nevertheless > bring temporary relief from our suffering. i find myself tending toward this notion that form & emptiness _do_ 'coincide/overlap' in a not too terribly mysterious way - i view them as different ways of looking at the same thing (sort of like looking at something with, or without, boundaries around individual pieces of it) however, this seemingly does nothing to relieve my suffering... > > Nothing could be farther removed from truth. Form and > emptiness do not overlap. They never coincide. The > overlap/coincidence of form and emptiness never > depends on some special conditions and circumstances. > All these things are mere figment of one's > imagination. > > In reality, form and emptiness are identical. > Identical things cannot coincide, nor overlap. Where here is where i get totally lost... in one sense i agree with you that form & emtiness seem to me to be identical (different labels for the same thing...) so, i don't understand how they 'cannot coincide/overlap' sort of like a rose by any other name could not coincide with the rose of the first name?? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Would you Help a Child in need? It is easier than you think. Click Here to meet a Child you can help. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0Z9NuA/I_qJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
