Hi Alex and Jill and all, I thought it might be useful to quote the entire Heart Sutra, for the sake of context for this discussion. Many readers will already know it, but maybe it's worth posting anyway. Apologies if a posting of the sutra is what started this discussion in the first place! :)
Ian HEART OF PERFECT WISDOM The Bodhisattva of Compassion, from the depths of prajna wisdom, saw the emptiness of all five skandhas and sundered the bonds of suffering. Know then: Form here is only emptiness, emptiness only form Form is no other than emptiness, Emptiness no other than form. Feeling, thought and choice, consciousness itself, are the same as this. Dharmas here are empty, all are the primal void. None are born or die, Nor are they stained or pure, nor do they wax or wane. So in emptiness no form, no feeling, thought or choice, Nor is there consciousness. No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; no colour, sound, smell, taste, touch, or what the mind takes hold of, nor even act of sensing. No ignorance or end of it, nor all that comes of ignorance: no withering, no death, no end of them. Nor is there pain, or cause of pain, or cease in pain, or noble path to lead from pain. Not even wisdom to attain, attainment too is emptiness. So know that the Bodhisattva, holding to nothing whatever, But dwelling in prajna wisdom, is freed of delusive hindrance, rid of the fear bred by it, and reaches clearest nirvana. All buddhas of past and present, buddhas of future time, through faith in prajna wisdom come to full enlightenment. Know then the great dharani, the radiant peerless mantra, the supreme, unfailing mantra, the Prajna Paramita, whose words allay all pain. This is highest wisdom, true beyond all doubt, know and proclaim its truth: Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi, sva-ha! >Thank you Alex, > >i am still troubled about the nature of 'boundaries' & the root of our >cravings/suffering... > >--- In [email protected], Alex Bunard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm afraid you are confusing emptiness with > > formlessness, > >i think this may be correct. >it is certainly true that 'emptiness' is problematic for me. > > > Emptiness, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of > > the form/formless combo. Emptiness not only means > > absence of any attributes attributable to a form, but > > also absence of any attributes attributable to an > > absence of form (i.e.formless). That's why it's > > emptiness -- it is empty not only of attributes, but > > also of any essence, any substance. > > > >but i have trouble with this view of emptiness. > >this sounds to me too much like a denial of 'existance' - but my sense >is that emptiness has more to do with 'putting down' what we 'project >onto' existance. > >sort of like your story of the farmer - emptiness seems to refer to the >lack of <farmer/man/direction-giver> as simply an illusion. >this doesn't mean that there was no 'substance' there - simply that >a conditioned view 'wrapped that substance' with an illusory context. > > > > Same as the farmer in the above example wasn't really > > there (he was merely imagined), the 'form is > > emptiness, emptiness is form' teaches that anything > > that we may discern is equally not there. It is merely > > ascribed, erroneously imputed. All the 'objects', > > 'forms', 'formless stuff', 'concepts', everything. > >this is useful to me to the extent that 'the object of our >discernment' is not there. but this becomes problematic for me if you >try to take it past the 'discernment' into the 'substance' that that >conditioned view is being projected onto. > >i am resistant to the idea that practice would be about a denial of >existence... ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Would you Help a Child in need? It is easier than you think. Click Here to meet a Child you can help. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0Z9NuA/I_qJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, Right Livelihood Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
