Hi Kai and good ZenForum people, Just to add a bit to what Michael, Ian, Bill, and the Rod-ster have already said so well...
Kai, I'm wondering if you and your wife aren't actually saying the same thing - just different "touches of the same elephant"... On the First Noble Truth (of suffering) - I think Ian alluded to this - no sect "rocks it" like the Theravada. Actually, I'd be curious to hear what others think about this: The Four Noble Truths aren't really "dwelled upon" at length in Mahayana. There's a different "orientation" towards - a different "touch" of - existence on the part of Mahayana (in contrast to that of Theravada). As an example, I recently came across this wonderful passage in Candrakirti's commentary on verse 15.7 of Nagarjuna's "Mulamadhyamaka-karika": "Existence", "non-existence" are both extremes. "Purity" [with respect to nirvana] and "impurity [with respect to samsara], these too are extremes. Therefore, having abandoned these extremes A wise person does not take a position even in the middle. "Existence", "non-existence" this is a conflict. "Purity", "impurity" this too is a conflict. Through conflict, suffering is not pacified. Through nonconflict, suffering is ended." Zen definitely pushes its "zen-ing" :-) from this "orientation"... Kai, you asked for specific texts that address suffering. In the Theravada tradition, I think the text to start with would be the Buddha's first sermon contained in the "Dhammacakkapavattana-sutta" (The Discourse on the Setting in Motion the Wheel of the Dharma). This is where the Four Noble Truths are first laid out...Another important text in the Theravada Canon dealing with Suffering would be the "Mahadukkhakkhandha-sutta" (The Greater Discourse on Stems of Suffering). If you Google both texts you can find an English translation on the web. I think it might be important to note that the term "duhkha" in Sanskrit (dukkha in Pali) encompasses, in English, a spectrum that includes suffering as well as "unsatisfactoriness". Apart from everyone's standard laundry list of "suffering' (e.g., death, sickness, etc.), the Theravada tradition certainly acknowledges the presence of pleasure, joy, happiness, love, etc in everyday living. What Theravada would insist is that the objects (including "soul' and "God") and places of ALL pleasure, joy, love, etc are transitory and that our attachments to these objects/places ultimately result in suffering with their inevitable passing... Bill, made a profound point in this recent posting. Brother, are you saying that "Individual enlightenment" is an illuson? Are you implying that in the Buddhist paradigm of inter-relational existence/mutuallly dependent existence/ the "net"/"network' of causality, "singular or individual enightenment" really is impossible? That there can only be "matrix" enlightenment?... and this can only "happen" when the suffering of all sentient beings is allevited? If you are, this is quite mind-boggling ... If this is the case, then the presence of the Buddha Sakyamuni would actually lead right back to "position" of your wife, Kai, on the nature of our world. :-) Now, that's a "Zen" circle :-)!! Gassho, ryhorikawa ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
