At 05:06 AM 11/23/2005 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Kai and good ZenForum people, > >Just to add a bit to what Michael, Ian, Bill, and the Rod-ster have >already said >so well... > >Kai, I'm wondering if you and your wife aren't actually saying the same >thing - >just different "touches of the same elephant"... > >On the First Noble Truth (of suffering) - I think Ian alluded to this - >no sect >"rocks it" like the Theravada. Actually, I'd be curious to hear what >others think >about this: The Four Noble Truths aren't really "dwelled upon" at length in >Mahayana. There's a different "orientation" towards - a different "touch" >of - >existence on the part of Mahayana (in contrast to that of Theravada). As an >example, I recently came across this wonderful passage in Candrakirti's >commentary on verse 15.7 of Nagarjuna's "Mulamadhyamaka-karika": > >"Existence", "non-existence" are both extremes. >"Purity" [with respect to nirvana] and "impurity [with respect to >samsara], these >too are extremes. >Therefore, having abandoned these extremes >A wise person does not take a position even in the middle. > >"Existence", "non-existence" this is a conflict. >"Purity", "impurity" this too is a conflict. >Through conflict, suffering is not pacified. >Through nonconflict, suffering is ended." > >Zen definitely pushes its "zen-ing" :-) from this "orientation"... > >Kai, you asked for specific texts that address suffering. In the Theravada >tradition, I think the text to start with would be the Buddha's first sermon >contained in the "Dhammacakkapavattana-sutta" (The Discourse on the >Setting in Motion the Wheel of the Dharma). This is where the Four Noble >Truths are first laid out...Another important text in the Theravada Canon >dealing with Suffering would be the "Mahadukkhakkhandha-sutta" (The >Greater Discourse on Stems of Suffering). If you Google both texts you can >find an English translation on the web. > >I think it might be important to note that the term "duhkha" in Sanskrit >(dukkha >in Pali) encompasses, in English, a spectrum that includes suffering as well >as "unsatisfactoriness". Apart from everyone's standard laundry list of >"suffering' (e.g., death, sickness, etc.), the Theravada tradition certainly >acknowledges the presence of pleasure, joy, happiness, love, etc in everyday >living. What Theravada would insist is that the objects (including "soul' >and >"God") and places of ALL pleasure, joy, love, etc are transitory and that >our >attachments to these objects/places ultimately result in suffering with their >inevitable passing... > >Bill, made a profound point in this recent posting. Brother, are you >saying that >"Individual enlightenment" is an illuson? Are you implying that in the >Buddhist paradigm of inter-relational existence/mutuallly dependent >existence/ the "net"/"network' of causality, "singular or individual >enightenment" really is impossible? That there can only be "matrix" >enlightenment?... and this can only "happen" when the suffering of all >sentient >beings is allevited? If you are, this is quite mind-boggling ... If this >is the case, >then the presence of the Buddha Sakyamuni would actually lead right back to >"position" of your wife, Kai, on the nature of our world. :-) Now, that's >a "Zen" >circle :-)!! > >Gassho, >ryhorikawa
When I start thinking about myself and sentient beings, I start to worry about the situation. :-) Let's see here, following Candrakirti: "Individual", "sentient beings" are both extremes. "Oneself" [with respect to nirvana] and "others [with respect to samsara], these too are extremes. Therefore, having abandoned these extremes A wise person does not take a position even in the middle. "Individual", "sentient beings" this is a conflict. "Oneself", "others" this too is a conflict. Through conflict, suffering is not pacified. Through nonconflict, suffering is ended." Hm. I think that works. :-) Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
