After careful consideration, Jon Spencer wrote:
> > How about Teancum? Was he righteous in his actions? Or will he burn in
> > hell forever for assasinating Amalickiah and Ammoron? Just where does one
> > draw the line between righteous action and unrighteous action? Clearly it
> > isn't just in what one does, but why one does it.
> >
> > WWMD?  What Would Moroni Do? He hated bloodshed, but wasn't shy about
> > using force when necessary.

I give up.  We are so far apart on this that there is no hope of 
persuading.  That anyone would compare Captain Moroni to George W. Bush, or 
the righteous Nephites in the days of Captain Moroni with the current, 
wicked generation of Americans is truly unfathomable.  Those who do it are 
completely off my page.  We aren't even talking the same language.  I just 
don't know what to say that could add anything to the current discussion.

The Gadianton Robbers were internal enemies that sought to overthrow the 
Nephite government from within.  They are in no way analogous to Saddam 
Hussein who is the head of state of a nation half way around the 
world.  And anyone who cannot see the difference between attacking another 
nation for any other reason than to repel an invasion, and attacking 
another nation just because we think he is a Bad Guy who has got it coming, 
is on a different planet.  If we go ahead with this war, which I hope we 
won't, the only good that could come out of it will be for the Islamic 
nations to be opened up for our missionaries.  And I doubt very much if 
George W. Bush has that in mind.  This very moment we have more grounds for 
attacking China, North Korea, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia than we do for 
attacking Hussein.  We never should have slaughtered hundreds of thousands 
of his people in the first place, much less start slaughtering them 
again.  During the Gulf War we killed hundreds of thousand of Iraqis.  For 
what?  How did we profit from the exercise in mass murder?  I'll bet it 
didn't even give Saddam a rash.  He doesn't care anything for his 
people.  So if we kill a couple of hundred thousand more, it won't be any 
skin off his chin.  When it comes to that, he can hide in his bunker and 
order his political enemies onto the front lines, and he could come out 
stronger than before we attacked.  Are we planning to occupy Iraq like we 
did Germany and Japan after WWII?  If not, then we are going to gain 
exactly nothing from waging another war in the Middle East.  That is what 
we gained in the last war with Saddam.

I have watched people stretch the truth and wrest the scriptures all my 
life.  I'm used to it.  But I don't see how the current situation could be 
stretched and wrested to justify an attack on Iraq under the guise of 
national defense.  And I have watched good people on this list rest and 
stretch to find some justification for war to a degree that astounds me. 
That is calling good evil and evil good.

Of course, I was vehemently opposed to the Persian Gulf War too.  And guess 
what?  My fears were realized.  Nothing was settled, and we stopped short 
of a victory leaving the monster alive to gather his forces for another 
attack.  An honest war I can agree to.  But no war pursued by the current 
crop of corrupt politicians in Washington is going to be an honest war.  In 
the first place, it isn't honest to attack someone who hasn't attacked you 
first.

I just can't believe what I have read on this list.  The righteous Nephites 
waged defensive wars against the Lamanites wherever they invaded.  I have 
not found a single incident in the Book of Mormon where the Nephites 
attacked first and invaded Lamanite territory.  Did they fight Gadiantons 
on their own soil?  You bet they did.  And if America wants to fight our 
Gadiantons on our own soil, I will cheer more loudly than anyone else on 
this list.  There are probably more Al Quaeda living here in the USA than 
there are in Iraq.  But they are a police problem, not a military problem.

The upcoming war with Iraq is unnecessary.  It is dishonest.  It will 
accomplish nothing good for out country.  It will do nothing to promote 
democratic government in the Middle East.  It is not a war of national 
defense.  It is a war of aggression.  And it is a bad idea because the Lord 
will not bless us for such a war.

I listened to Elder Nelson's remarks in General Conference.  Unless I am 
ignorant of the English language he was saying that as a Church we have to 
remain neutral in this debate.  That as a people, we Latter-day Saints are 
obligated to serve in our military if called upon to do so.  But as 
individual saints we are to pursue peace.  In other words, we are to oppose 
war.  Is there any other way to pursue peace?

And so far, nobody pays any attention the Lord Law of War.  Notice that in 
the last quoted verse, the Lord refers to it as his "law."

---
23  Now, I speak unto you concerning your families—if men will asmite you, 
or your families, once, and ye bbear it patiently and crevile not against 
them, neither seek drevenge, ye shall be erewarded;

24  But if ye bear it not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as 
being ameted out as a just measure unto you.

25  And again, if your enemy shall smite you the second time, and you 
revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be 
an ahundred fold.

26  And again, if he shall smite you the third time, and ye bear it 
apatiently, your reward shall be doubled unto you four–fold;

27  And these three atestimonies shall stand against your enemy if he 
repent not, and shall not be blotted out.

28  And now, verily I say unto you, if that enemy shall escape my 
vengeance, that he be not brought into judgment before me, then ye shall 
see to it that ye awarn him in my name, that he come no more upon you, 
neither upon your family, even your children's children unto the third and 
fourth generation.

29  And then, if he shall come upon you or your children, or your 
children's children unto the third and fourth generation, I have delivered 
thine aenemy into thine hands;

30  And then if thou wilt spare him, thou shalt be rewarded for thy 
arighteousness; and also thy children and thy children's children unto the 
third and fourth generation.

31  Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him 
according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and 
thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art 
justified.

32  Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy afathers, 
Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets 
and apostles.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 98:23 - 32)


John W. Redelfs                       [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===========================================
"It may be, for instance, that nothing except the power of
faith and the authority of the priesthood can save
individuals and congregations from the atomic holocausts
that surely shall be."  --Bruce R. McConkie
===========================================
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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